Need an Opinion on A Sierra Nevada Clone--Virtual Tasting.

[Mike at Bay]

sure, that would just be a very very expensive batch if i was only relying on whirlpool additions. Also i call my IPAs Juicy not hazy. there is a fairly large difference between the two in my opinion. My juicies are hazy, but they are not hazy ipas??? does that make any sense? I have gone the full whirlpool and much prefer adding something in the 10-15 min range just for the balance of the flavors.

this is one of my core beers, that i am brewing tomorrow. its a session Juicy ipa that i really really like at this point. hop schedule wise its very tasty.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1614488

@Dave Y #beefin' #voss4life #whywaithavebeerfast

so adding high AA hops late in the boil produces a different result than something more typical (like Cascade) at 60 mins.? I get that the hop characteristics are different. I guess my question is more like "Why wait until 15 mins?" Does my question make sense?

 

[Donoroto]

so adding high AA hops late in the boil produces a different result than something more typical (like Cascade) at 60 mins.? I get that the hop characteristics are different. I guess my question is more like "Why wait until 15 mins?" Does my question make sense?

Perfect sense.

Hops do a thing called Isomerization, which is a conversion of certain compounds in the hops to different compounds. It is these compounds that are bitter.

This process occurs at room temperature, but very very slowly. At boiling, it is completed in 30 minutes*. At 180F, it takes several minutes longer. At 135F it is pretty slow.

At room temperature, you don’t have the days to wait for the bitterness, but what happens is other compounds, which are aromas (smells), kind-of dissolve into the liquid** and give non-bitter flavors and smells to the beer. This is the principle of dry-hopping.

Ever taste a beer that has a bit of a grapefruit flavor? That’s from the relatively cool addition of hops. I’m sure you’ve tasted bitter, and that’s from the hot addition.

Different hops give you different flavors, but the bitterness is pretty much the same from every hop. That’s why we use something like Magnum, which only needs a little bit to make a lot of bitterness, for bitterness, while we use nice odiferous hops, like Cascade or mosaic to give us those grapefruit or other flavors.

Deep rabbit hole here, but that’s the basics.

*the time is arguable. Nearly everybody agrees that after 60 minutes full isomerization has occurred

*these are oils, so they don’t actually dissolve, more infuse. Time, heat and oxygen cause these oils to dissipate and lose their flavor.

 

[Mike at Bay]

Perfect sense.

Hops do a thing called Isomerization, which is a conversion of certain compounds in the hops to different compounds. It is these compounds that are bitter.

This process occurs at room temperature, but very very slowly. At boiling, it is completed in 30 minutes*. At 180F, it takes several minutes longer. At 135F it is pretty slow.

At room temperature, you don’t have the days to wait for the bitterness, but what happens is other compounds, which are aromas (smells), kind-of dissolve into the liquid** and give non-bitter flavors and smells to the beer. This is the principle of dry-hopping.

Ever taste a beer that has a bit of a grapefruit flavor? That’s from the relatively cool addition of hops. I’m sure you’ve tasted bitter, and that’s from the hot addition.

Different hops give you different flavors, but the bitterness is pretty much the same from every hop. That’s why we use something like Magnum, which only needs a little bit to make a lot of bitterness, for bitterness, while we use nice odiferous hops, like Cascade or mosaic to give us those grapefruit or other flavors.

Deep rabbit hole here, but that’s the basics.

*the time is arguable. Nearly everybody agrees that after 60 minutes full isomerization has occurred

*these are oils, so they don’t actually dissolve, more infuse. Time, heat and oxygen cause these oils to dissipate and lose their fla

 

[Dave Y]

so adding high AA hops late in the boil produces a different result than something more typical (like Cascade) at 60 mins.? I get that the hop characteristics are different. I guess my question is more like "Why wait until 15 mins?" Does my question make sense?

@Bigbre04 & @Donoroto are steering you correctly. To see what we're saying here, you can add in say, a single hop addition on your recipe.
set it for 60 minutes / boil / enter your hop / aa

The recipe calculator will give you the running IBU count once you tab past the last field. Lets say you enter 60 minutes in for a Chinook, 11AA hop and get ( I'm making this up for simplicity ) 35 IBUs. Now, go back and make the 60 minutes 15 minutes watch the IBU's drop.

Bittering hops tend to be 60m down to say 30m additions.
"flavor hops" run from about 20m down to 5m or even "flame out"
whirlpool - or post boil hops are done at lower temps where you get flavor and some aroma
dry hop - aroma.
ish.

Like @Donoroto said, this is a rabbit hole worthy of its own discussion, but to answer your question why wait until 15m

It's a balancing act. In malt forward beers, it's generally a single hop addition for 60m. For more complex flavor and aroma, you want hops closer to the end of the boil, and maybe after.

You want the right IBU range for the beer you're creating but you don't want one component to dominate the flavor profile.
A few years back, BIG IBU numbers were in. These beers were good for what they were, but really bitter. It's tough to "balance" 75+ IBUs. Even for WCIPA, I want to be under and I think @Bigbre04 subscribes to the 1.0x0 to x0 ibu formula (?) where x is a number representing the gravity and 10's of ibus. e.g.: 1.060 OG to 60-ish IBU, 1.050 / 50ish ibu, etc. general rule. I hope I've attributed that correctly.

Because balance makes a more drinkable, enjoyable beer.

 

[Mike at Bay]

So in Bigbre04 70ish gallon recipe.....All the bitterness comes from the first 7 additions (shorter time/higher AA/higher volume of hops increases bitterness ). At the same time the mix of those additions (particularly those later in the boil and Whirlpool) are adding flavors to the beer's unique flavor profile along with the dry hoping. Yes? You get to a complex hop bill for this recipe with lots of experience "playing with hops" vs a simpler additions in say the SNPA. Sound right?

Amount	Variety	Cost	Type	AA	Use	Time	IBU	Bill %
69 oz / $ 114.10
1 oz	Yakima Chief Hops - Mosaic LupuLN2 (Cryo)	$ 1.85 / oz $ 1.85	Lupulin Pellet	23.6	Boil	15 min	3.1	1.4%
4 oz	Yakima Valley Hops - LUPOMAX Citra	$ 1.60 / oz $ 6.40	Pellet	18.5	Boil	10 min	7.11	5.8%
5 oz	Yakima Valley Hops - LUPOMAX Sabro	$ 1.50 / oz $ 7.50	Lupulin Pellet	22	Boil	5 min	5.81	7.2%
5 oz	Yakima Chief Hops - Mosaic LupuLN2 (Cryo)	$ 1.85 / oz $ 9.25	Lupulin Pellet	23.6	Boil	5 min	6.23	7.2%
6 oz	Yakima Valley Hops - LUPOMAX Sabro	$ 1.50 / oz $ 9.00	Lupulin Pellet	22	Whirlpool at 185 °F	0 min	5.2	8.7%
6 oz	Yakima Chief Hops - Mosaic LupuLN2 (Cryo)	$ 1.85 / oz $ 11.10	Lupulin Pellet	23.6	Whirlpool at 185 °F	0 min	5.58	8.7%
6 oz	Yakima Valley Hops - LUPOMAX Citra	$ 1.60 / oz $ 9.60	Pellet	18.5	Whirlpool at 185 °F	0 min	4.38	8.7%
12 oz	Yakima Valley Hops - LUPOMAX Sabro	$ 1.50 / oz $ 18.00	Lupulin Pellet	22	Dry Hop at 60 °F	5 days		17.4%
12 oz	Yakima Chief Hops - Mosaic LupuLN2 (Cryo)	$ 1.85 / oz $ 22.20	Lupulin Pellet	23.6	Dry Hop at 60 °F	5 days		17.4%
12 oz	Yakima Valley Hops - LUPOMAX Citra	$ 1.60 / oz $ 19.20	Pellet	18.5	Dry Hop	5 days		17.4%

 

[Mike at Bay]

@Bigbre04 & @Donoroto are steering you correctly. To see what we're saying here, you can add in say, a single hop addition on your recipe.
set it for 60 minutes / boil / enter your hop / aa

The recipe calculator will give you the running IBU count once you tab past the last field. Lets say you enter 60 minutes in for a Chinook, 11AA hop and get ( I'm making this up for simplicity ) 35 IBUs. Now, go back and make the 60 minutes 15 minutes watch the IBU's drop.

Bittering hops tend to be 60m down to say 30m additions.
"flavor hops" run from about 20m down to 5m or even "flame out"
whirlpool - or post boil hops are done at lower temps where you get flavor and some aroma
dry hop - aroma.
ish.

Like @Donoroto said, this is a rabbit hole worthy of its own discussion, but to answer your question why wait until 15m

It's a balancing act. In malt forward beers, it's generally a single hop addition for 60m. For more complex flavor and aroma, you want hops closer to the end of the boil, and maybe after.

You want the right IBU range for the beer you're creating but you don't want one component to dominate the flavor profile.
A few years back, BIG IBU numbers were in. These beers were good for what they were, but really bitter. It's tough to "balance" 75+ IBUs. Even for WCIPA, I want to be under and I think @Bigbre04 subscribes to the 1.0x0 to x0 ibu formula (?) where x is a number representing the gravity and 10's of ibus. e.g.: 1.060 OG to 60-ish IBU, 1.050 / 50ish ibu, etc. general rule. I hope I've attributed that correctly.

Because balance makes a more drinkable, enjoyable beer.

Got it!! Thanks!

 

[J A]

sure, that would just be a very very expensive batch if i was only relying on whirlpool additions. Also i call my IPAs Juicy not hazy. there is a fairly large difference between the two in my opinion. My juicies are hazy, but they are not hazy ipas??? does that make any sense? I have gone the full whirlpool and much prefer adding something in the 10-15 min range just for the balance of the flavors.

this is one of my core beers, that i am brewing tomorrow. its a session Juicy ipa that i really really like at this point. hop schedule wise its very tasty.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1614488

@Dave Y #beefin' #voss4life #whywaithavebeerfast

I'm with you on that...hops present very different flavors at different stages of boil so all whirlpool hops can lack some complexity, sometimes. Simcoe is one of my favorite examples...20 minutes = pine, 10 minutes = pot, 5 minutes = general tropical fruity, whirlpool = mango, dryhop = grapefruit lifesaver from the tropical flavor roll.

 

[Bigbre04]

@Mike at Bay

60-30 mins--all bittering very little flavor/aroma--bittering flavor
15 min--some bittering more flavor less aroma--hoppy flavor
10 min--less bittering most flavor some aroma--hoppy flavor
5 min--lower bittering mostly flavor more aroma--hoppy/fruity flavor
0 min(flameout/WP212f)--lowerest bittering lots of flavor and aroma--fruity mostly
WP 185--very little bittering lots of flavor and alot of aroma--fruity
WP <180--no bittering lots of flavor and aroma--fruity

 

[Bigbre04]

I scaled down the juicy ipa i am brewing today if you are interested. Was showing a buddy the amounts needed.

2gal @ 65% efficiency
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1620746

5gal @ 65% eff
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1620750

 

[Mike at Bay]

OK gang. So I brewed the "distilled water version" of my all grain BIAB SNPA clone. Early returns are in......a couple of caveats......my first time using a PH meter (all the calibrating, etc.) and forgot to turn the timer on until about 5 mins into the brew....so might have been a little more or less than 60 mins.

So......I was shooting for a 5.4 PH.....early in the mash (15mins) the PH seemed high around 6.0 (could have been poor calibration) and then later in the mash still high....so added 3ml of lactic acid.....I should have been more patient.....the end PH of the mash after settling and cooling is now 5.2.....had I not added the acid I probably would have been right on around 5.4.

I was expecting a OG of 1.052 but I am at 1.050. I will take it but I am guessing my efficiency in the recipe builder is too high. Currently set at 70%.

All in all I will call it a win and I am waiting for the proper pitch temp. I will brew the (house water version" of this beer in about 10 days.....

more to come.

 

[J A]

OK gang. So I brewed the "distilled water version" of my all grain BIAB SNPA clone. Early returns are in......a couple of caveats......my first time using a PH meter (all the calibrating, etc.) and forgot to turn the timer on until about 5 mins into the brew....so might have been a little more or less than 60 mins.

So......I was shooting for a 5.4 PH.....early in the mash (15mins) the PH seemed high around 6.0 (could have been poor calibration) and then later in the mash still high....so added 3ml of lactic acid.....I should have been more patient.....the end PH of the mash after settling and cooling is now 5.2.....had I not added the acid I probably would have been right on around 5.4.

I was expecting a OG of 1.052 but I am at 1.050. I will take it but I am guessing my efficiency in the recipe builder is too high. Currently set at 70%.

All in all I will call it a win and I am waiting for the proper pitch temp. I will brew the (house water version" of this beer in about 10 days.....

more to come.

A difference of .002 in OG is absolutely negligible. Pretty much within the margin of error when reading a typical hydrometer. You'll get the hang of mash pH. The calculator is pretty good at predicting the pH so I seldom bother even checking. Sparge pH is definitely a thing, though. Those additions help make the difference in efficiency when doing a fly sparge.

 

[Dave Y]

OK gang. So I brewed the "distilled water version" of my all grain BIAB SNPA clone. Early returns are in......a couple of caveats......my first time using a PH meter (all the calibrating, etc.) and forgot to turn the timer on until about 5 mins into the brew....so might have been a little more or less than 60 mins.

So......I was shooting for a 5.4 PH.....early in the mash (15mins) the PH seemed high around 6.0 (could have been poor calibration) and then later in the mash still high....so added 3ml of lactic acid.....I should have been more patient.....the end PH of the mash after settling and cooling is now 5.2.....had I not added the acid I probably would have been right on around 5.4.

I was expecting a OG of 1.052 but I am at 1.050. I will take it but I am guessing my efficiency in the recipe builder is too high. Currently set at 70%.

All in all I will call it a win and I am waiting for the proper pitch temp. I will brew the (house water version" of this beer in about 10 days.....

more to come.

Take the W.
As my dad used to say, it doesn't matter if you win by 100 or win by 1, a win is a win.

 

[Craigerrr]

sure, that would just be a very very expensive batch if i was only relying on whirlpool additions. Also i call my IPAs Juicy not hazy. there is a fairly large difference between the two in my opinion. My juicies are hazy, but they are not hazy ipas??? does that make any sense? I have gone the full whirlpool and much prefer adding something in the 10-15 min range just for the balance of the flavors.

this is one of my core beers, that i am brewing tomorrow. its a session Juicy ipa that i really really like at this point. hop schedule wise its very tasty.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1614488

@Dave Y #beefin' #voss4life #whywaithavebeerfast

That looks reall good! I want to say "I will brew yours, if you brew mine" mine is lower ABV, but it is a fan favorite here among my beer Nerd friends...
Too close to bed time, but I will share it

 

[Craigerrr]

Coles notes, rule of thumb...
60 minute hops - almost entirely contribute bitterness, minimal hop flavor, almost no hop aroma
30 minute hops - roughly equivalent contributions of bitterness, flavor, and aroma.
0 minute hops - minimal bitterness (dependant on time and temperature) more significant flavor and decent aroma contributions.
Whirlpool hops - high aroma and flavor contributions, and minimal bitterness (time and temperature)
Dry hops - virtually zero bitterness, some flavor, but mainly aroma contributions.
A it simplistic but a decent guide

 

[Bigbre04]

Coles notes, rule of thumb...
60 minute hops - almost entirely contribute bitterness, minimal hop flavor, almost no hop aroma
30 minute hops - roughly equivalent contributions of bitterness, flavor, and aroma.
0 minute hops - minimal bitterness (dependant on time and temperature) more significant flavor and decent aroma contributions.
Whirlpool hops - high aroma and flavor contributions, and minimal bitterness (time and temperature)
Dry hops - virtually zero bitterness, some flavor, but mainly aroma contributions.
A it simplistic but a decent guide

dryhop, especially in early fermentation or during active fermentation can contribute alot of flavor and can drastically drop fg. that session juicy was slowing down on day 2 until i dryhopped it and it kicked back off again. this morning it is down to 2.5p which is 79%. I will crash it on sunday or monday. carb and pack it on monday or tuesday.