Irish Red, but creamier?

[J A]

Admittedly, that's not exactly what I'm looking for, but it does sound very good. Any chance you could send me a recipe?
And would you say trying to add some oats to it to make it somewhat creamier sounds like a reasonable idea?
Finally, What's Light Aromatic? Don't think I ever heard of it.

Yeah...I'm going to tweak the recipe a little for a re-brew and I'll make it public and post a link. I'll include notes on the original percentages for reference.

 

[Aub]

Hello all.
I'm looking into making my next batch of beer, and I have this vision for something that's like an Irish Red, sort of, but heavier and creamier than normal, with a full mouthfeel and some butteriness to it, to work nicely for the mild winter we're about to have.
The recipes I found don't seem to be that way inclined (the second one might be closer to it, as the writer does mention buttery character...):
https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-irish-red/
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/beer-recipe-of-the-week-joe-gillians-red/

Ideally, I'd also want the beer to be very opaque, instead of the normal clear red. I really want to see red (or even pink) clouds in there. Obviously, taste is the priority, but if there's a way this could be achieved, that would be great.

Oh! Finally, if it doesn't require liquid yeast, it would make my life much easier.

So, if you have any recipes or advice for me, I'd really appreciate it.

Tal

I added 200g of flaked barley to my 23l batch of Irish Red and it gave it a fuller mouthfeel and great head retention.

 

[Hawkbox]

I use flaked oats a lot for it. Quaker quick oats are cheap and easy to get.

 

[J A]

Admittedly, that's not exactly what I'm looking for, but it does sound very good. Any chance you could send me a recipe? And would you say trying to add some oats to it to make it somewhat creamier sounds like a reasonable idea?
Finally, What's Light Aromatic? Don't think I ever heard of it.

Here's a link to the Aromatic malt I use. Franco Belge Special Aromatic...http://shop.greatfermentations.com/product/franco-belges-special-aromatic-malt/specialty-grains It's what my LHBS stocks and I've gotten very used to it. I find that other Aromatic/Melanoidin ,malts are darker and "inky" in flavor but this is really malty/complex without any cloying qualities. It's probably closer to a good Vienna malt and you wouldn't be amiss to sub that.
Here's the original recipe...I split a big batch of wort into 3 different styles with post-boil additions to differentiate. For this style I merely steeped the black malt and added to the fermenter for extra color. As I said, it's got incredible flavor but it's a little sweet. Nottingham yeast might attenuate a little better.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/723586/amber-split-batch-irish-red
And here's the version I'll be brewing to address a few of the things that weren't quite right. A little less sweet malt, a little more Black malt and replacing the CaraMunich with a local toasted Munich to keep some flavor without tripling down on the sweet specialty malts. the Pale Malt I use is a local offering that's reasonably similar to Marris Otter. Willamette is what I default to but EKG or Fuggle would be perfectly appropriate, of course.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/720758/golden-toffee-ale

 

[Nosybear]

Exactly. Fake butter is one of my least favorite things in foods but when there's just that hint in the right beer, it adds immensely to the the depth of flavor in the right malt profiles. And, yes, that infected, nasty side of diacetyl is the one that nobody likes and is pretty easy to detect. It makes sense that oxidation is part of the process and, like rancid, oxidized oil, it's slightly nauseating.

Normally because when diacetyl is present as a result of an infection, butyric acid is as well, and it smells like vomit.

 

[Nosybear]

I use flaked oats a lot for it. Quaker quick oats are cheap and easy to get.

I'd recommend them for steeping. They've been more aggressively gelatinized than "old fashioned" oats. One caveat: Do not use steel cut oats for steeping or mashing unless you cook them first - you'll get nothing out of them.

 

[Hawkbox]

Huh, interesting. I've never had a problem with them in the mash, though I've also never noticed if they're actually doing something.

 

[Nosybear]

Huh, interesting. I've never had a problem with them in the mash, though I've also never noticed if they're actually doing something.

There won't be a problem using steel cut oats in the mash, it's just that until the starches gelatinize, the enzymes in the mash won't convert them to sugar. Less of a problem with oats, gelatinization temperature is fairly low, than with corn but still, it's hard for the enzymes to penetrate and hydrolyze the starch in a hard-as-a-rock steel-cut oat grit.

 

[Hawkbox]

I meant flaked oats.

 

[Tal Orbach]

Here's a link to the Aromatic malt I use. Franco Belge Special Aromatic...http://shop.greatfermentations.com/product/franco-belges-special-aromatic-malt/specialty-grains It's what my LHBS stocks and I've gotten very used to it. I find that other Aromatic/Melanoidin ,malts are darker and "inky" in flavor but this is really malty/complex without any cloying qualities. It's probably closer to a good Vienna malt and you wouldn't be amiss to sub that.
Here's the original recipe...I split a big batch of wort into 3 different styles with post-boil additions to differentiate. For this style I merely steeped the black malt and added to the fermenter for extra color. As I said, it's got incredible flavor but it's a little sweet. Nottingham yeast might attenuate a little better.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/723586/amber-split-batch-irish-red
And here's the version I'll be brewing to address a few of the things that weren't quite right. A little less sweet malt, a little more Black malt and replacing the CaraMunich with a local toasted Munich to keep some flavor without tripling down on the sweet specialty malts. the Pale Malt I use is a local offering that's reasonably similar to Marris Otter. Willamette is what I default to but EKG or Fuggle would be perfectly appropriate, of course.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/720758/golden-toffee-ale

Hey J A.
So, I made your Golden Toffee Ale (or something that's as similar as I could), and I'm about to keg it. What's the carbonation I'm aiming for?

 

[J A]

I did mine up to be in the low 2-volume range. Enough carbonation to contribute to the slightly more dry finish but not enough to be fizzy and out of character for Pub-style beers. My current batch was naturally carbed in the fermenter and has a nice, creamy quality to the carbonation so that even though I have it carbed up a little extra to facilitate bottling/canning, it's very smooth with no carbonic bite.

Here's notes from the BJCP style guidelines:
"Mouthfeel: Medium-light to medium body, although
examples containing low levels of diacetyl may have a slightly
slick mouthfeel (not required). Moderate carbonation. Smooth.
Moderately attenuated.
Comments: Several variations exist within the style, which
causes the guidelines to be somewhat broad to accommodate
them. Traditional Irish examples are relatively low in hops, are
grainy with a slight roast dryness in the finish, fairly neutral in
general. Modern export Irish examples are more caramelly and
sweet, and might have more esters. American craft versions are
often more alcoholic versions of the Irish export examples. An
emerging Irish craft beer scene is exploring more bitter
versions of traditional examples. Finally, there are some
commercial examples that sound Irish but are essentially
International Amber Lagers, with sweetish palates and little
bitterness. These guidelines are written around the traditional
Irish examples, with slight extensions for export Irish versions
and modern craft Irish versions."

Let me know how your batch turned out and what variations you used. When I re-brewed, I pushed a little darker and a little higher OG. It's really good but I want to do it again and hold closer to the original batch recipe.

 

[Tal Orbach]

Thank you!
I'll definitely let you know how it turned out.

My current batch was naturally carbed in the fermenter and has a nice, creamy quality

Do you mean you fermented the beer in a pressure capable container, eliminating the need to later carbonate the beer by priming/force?

 

[J A]

Do you mean you fermented the beer in a pressure capable container, eliminating the need to later carbonate the beer by priming/force?

Yep...That batch was fermented in my Unitank.
I just kegged a batch of American Amber this morning done the same way. Since it's got a pressure relief valve that's set for somewhere in the range of 15-18 psi, I can close off the blowoff valve with a few points of gravity left to go. That lets it carb up to a reasonable volume of CO2 naturally. I have to top it up as I drop temp to get a little more CO2 in suspension and hold the kegs with a pound or two extra pressure until it equalizes with a little higher CO2 volume to accommodate bottling/canning, but it's nicely carbed up the minute it goes in to the keg. In fact I just pulled a sample from one of the kegs after I moved them to the keezer and it's pretty dead on.

 

[Tal Orbach]

Are there any advantages to using this method, compared to priming with sugar?

 

[J A]

There are a lot of advantages with kegging instead of bottling in general. Lower risk of oxidation, fewer sanitation issues, less time from grain to glass, etc. The advantage of bottling is that the nature of natural carbonation makes for a better mouthfeel. Carbing up slowly in a keg by setting at low pressure and waiting for a long period to get to proper carb level achieves a similar result. The method of "capping" a fermenter takes advantage of the same process as bottling without having to add extra sugar or extra time.
You could do the exact same thing in bottles by simply bottling before FG is reached, but it's not nearly as accurate and risks under carbing or broken bottles. Because the vessel has a pressure relief valve, over-carbonation can't cause problems and if it's under-carbed.
It's even possible with a Unitank or something similar (transferring to a keg with a spunding valve before fermentation is complete in a carboy, for instance) to naturally carbonate and counter-pressure bottle the carbonated beer.

 

[Tal Orbach]

Kegging is a given.
The question is - advantages of natural carbing in the fermenter vs carbonating with sugar in the keg. (let's say I don't really mind waiting two more weeks for the beer to finish carbing, I'm referring more to advantages in terms of the product).

 

[Nosybear]

Kegging is a given.
The question is - advantages of natural carbing in the fermenter vs carbonating with sugar in the keg. (let's say I don't really mind waiting two more weeks for the beer to finish carbing, I'm referring more to advantages in terms of the product).

None whatsoever. Seriously. Pressure carb it unless you have a reason (certain Belgian styles) to naturally carbonate. In other words, be as lazy as you can and still get the results you want.

 

[J A]

Natural carbonation in the keg would be the same as in the fermenter. I do burst carbing and it eventually settles into a nice fine-bubble creamy-head sort of carbonation but at first it's a little bit soda-fizzy. I haven't done the set and forget method but that should yield results similar to natural carbonation without the residue that keg-priming would make. Both would take more time than the capped fermenter method but not more than an extra week or so.

 

[Hawkbox]

None whatsoever. Seriously. Pressure carb it unless you have a reason (certain Belgian styles) to naturally carbonate. In other words, be as lazy as you can and still get the results you want.

Now you're speaking my language.

 

[Tal Orbach]

be as lazy as you can and still get the results you want.

That's my philosophy.
As lazy, and as cheap.