Irish Red, but creamier?

Discussion in 'Beginners Brewing Forum' started by Tal Orbach, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    Hello all.
    I'm looking into making my next batch of beer, and I have this vision for something that's like an Irish Red, sort of, but heavier and creamier than normal, with a full mouthfeel and some butteriness to it, to work nicely for the mild winter we're about to have.
    The recipes I found don't seem to be that way inclined (the second one might be closer to it, as the writer does mention buttery character...):
    https://beerandbrewing.com/make-your-best-irish-red/
    https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrew-recipe/beer-recipe-of-the-week-joe-gillians-red/

    Ideally, I'd also want the beer to be very opaque, instead of the normal clear red. I really want to see red (or even pink) clouds in there. Obviously, taste is the priority, but if there's a way this could be achieved, that would be great.

    Oh! Finally, if it doesn't require liquid yeast, it would make my life much easier.

    So, if you have any recipes or advice for me, I'd really appreciate it.

    Tal
     
  2. Texas Ale Works

    Texas Ale Works Active Member

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    So, are you thinking something like a Red NEIPA, with less hops and more malt character?
     
  3. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    I guess you could say that, but I'd say A LOT less hops, and not only more malt character, also more buttery character and a smoother mouthfeel (let's say that if I had the right equipment, I'd serve this on a nitro tap, but I'm going to bottle them, so whatever works for making it as close to that as possible).
     
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like the thing to do is to add flaked oats or rye to an Irish Red, skip the kettle finings, then ferment with a highly flocculant English yeast. Buttery character is diacetyl, caused by yeast that give up and flocculate before they have a chance to clean up after themselves.

    I don't know how to get pink into a beer.
     
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  5. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    Would you say the oats\rye should come instead of one of the other grains or in addition? How much should I use?
    Would Nottingham or S04 be a good choice for leaving diacetyl behind?

    And, would you say any of the two recipes above would work for that or is one more suitable than the other, based on your experience?

    I actually just saw a video where they added strong hibiscus infusion to secondary. Gave it a very nice pink color, but that's not something I'm going to do. Taste is still the important thing here. :)
     
  6. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    One of the distinctive things about an Irish red is roasted barley for that red color, and the dry finish it brings. So, you could get rid of the roasted barley (maybe sub sinimar or midnight wheat for the color?) and add oats for a slick/creamy mouthfeel. Mash at a higher temperature than usual, and add some flaked barley for a richer mouthfeel and rocky head and body.

    I love rye, but it also can be a bit dry in the finish, which is what you want to avoid here I think.
     
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  7. Hogarthe

    Hogarthe Well-Known Member

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    Maybe try Ringwood ale yeast if you don't mind using a liquid yeast. It's supposed to have a lot of diacytl if you don't leave the beer on the yeast to clean up. Use a good amount of oats for the creamyness.
     
  8. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    I don't know if I can get those here (Israel). Dry yeast are always easier to come by.
     
  9. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Oats/Rye: Generalizing, a pound in a five-gallon batch.
     
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  10. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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  11. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    Thanks for the suggestion. I read the article - I have to say I don't think that's what I'm aiming for. I'm not looking for something very strong and definitely not something sweet (while malt character is something that I definitely like, balance is key for me in beers, and if anything - I prefer them more on the bitter side).
    Usually I actually prefer my beers fairly light bodied, and even here, I'm not looking for something that's really full bodied - only fuller than a normal Irish Red. Let's say with a medium to medium-full body.
     
  12. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Fuller than a normal Irish Red kind of makes it and English Brown. I mention that only to let you know that, for what you want, you may want to look at recipes for English Brown. We were tasting Irish Irish Reds last night, so I understand why you want to up its game a bit but anything you do to increase the body is likely to pull it into the other style.
     
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  13. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    I have an Irish Red on tap that started with very toasty/butter/toffee notes and has faded into a more balanced malt/hop flavor. Mine is light and crisp but has some of the flavors you're looking for. I used a pretty good percentage of Biscuit, Light Aromatic and CaraMunich 1 malts - a little over 4% each. I'll rebrew that recipe with a little lower percentage of those because the combination always tends to leave more residual sweetness than I want, even when I get good attenuation.
    I attributed some of the buttery flavor to diacetyl, but it was extremely pleasant rather than the nasty, oily, cloying notes I get from beers that I know have diacetyl at levels that are problematic. I used S-04 and I think it's a yeast that rides a fine line in fermentation temps. Too low risks diacetyl and too high throws acetaldehyde.
     
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  14. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    Admittedly, that's not exactly what I'm looking for, but it does sound very good. Any chance you could send me a recipe?
    And would you say trying to add some oats to it to make it somewhat creamier sounds like a reasonable idea?
    Finally, What's Light Aromatic? Don't think I ever heard of it.
     
  15. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Diacetyl really comes in two flavors known collectively as vicinal diketones. Diacetyl by itself is rather pleasant, in fact, it's artificial butter flavoring and it's what you taste when you taste buttery or toffee notes in beers, primarily British but the Czechs also value a bit of "I can't believe it's not butter" in their beer. When it oxidizes or when other diketones are present such as in infected beer, the butter flavor gets rather rancid and nasty.

    As to oats in Irish Red, it's no longer to style but hey, you're brewing for yourself and not judges, so give it a try. About 0.5 kg in a 20-liter batch should be about right. I think I'd go for rye, though, to add the subtle spiciness it brings. It has the glucans, too, so will affect mouthfeel about the same as oats.
     
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  16. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    So is there any way to ensure that I get the good kind?

    Yeah... don't really care about style definitions. I'm not entering any competitions any time soon :)
    Doesn't rye also impart some sourdough flavors?
    And finally - whether oats or rye, should they go instead of any of the other grains or in addition to them?
     
  17. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Yes, good sanitation. The nasty diacetyl is generally a result of an infection. And keep as much air out of the process as possible.

    I've never experienced rye contributing sourdough flavors - those are lactic acid and would be the result of souring. If you're mashing, you can replace some of the base grain with the flaked grain to keep the OG similar, or not, your choice. If you're steeping, don't replace. There aren't a lot of sugars in either and what you're looking for is the glucans, which you can extract with water.
     
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  18. Tal Orbach

    Tal Orbach Member

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    Alright, and not raising the temperature toward the end of fermentation would ensure that those nice buttery flavors stay in there?
    And how do I avoid souring? Or is it not something to worry about?
     
  19. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Good sanitation. Sorry, can't say more than that without going down a rabbit hole. And rye by itself won't sour a beer.
     
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  20. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Fake butter is one of my least favorite things in foods but when there's just that hint in the right beer, it adds immensely to the the depth of flavor in the right malt profiles. And, yes, that infected, nasty side of diacetyl is the one that nobody likes and is pretty easy to detect. It makes sense that oxidation is part of the process and, like rancid, oxidized oil, it's slightly nauseating.
     

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