Insanity? Percolation or Drip Mash instead of Immersion...

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I was reading about coffee extraction this morning, and seeing commentary that percolating or drip/pour-over methods result in more efficient extraction of the good stuff. (though many will argue there are other goodies left behind that immersion can extract via French Press for example)

This got me to thinking, while we're all just using methods developed 100s of years ago (or longer) before our new fangled equipment and measurement tools were available, has anyone attempted mashing grains entirely via percolation or drip/pour-over? (yes, the latter is what sparging does, but I mean for the entire mash - no immersion)

I'm thinking this would have to start off 'cool' below gelatinization temp of the particular grain so as to avoid massive dough balls where water doesn't touch grain. (with stirring most likely at first to get everything wet) This would then have to be slowly ramped up through the saccharification ranges. (I do this already via immersion with BIAB and propane)

It would also require most likely a basket instead of a bag in order to affix a recirculation device to 'wash over' the grain bed like a sparge arm. The process would recirculate the wort back over the grain continuously until 100% conversion. That's pretty tough with just a bag and a ladder and hook without something to attach my Ultimate Sparge Arm. The idea would be to maintain about an inch of wort over the grain with a slow trickle feeding it while it continuously drips back into the kettle. (yeah, yeah, Oxygen, whatever, I'm not concerned—yet) Once full conversion is achieved, rinsing would continue through the mash-out ramp before stopping, completing draining/squeezing/pressing, and proceeding to boil as normal.

I don't have a basket, but friends do. They also brew electric which might be a bonus since it is easier to control than propane free-style. (no gas controller tied to a thermometer) If I can cajole them into letting me brew on one of their systems, I might give this a shot. (for Science™) I'm thinking we'll need to use the BrewCommander controller since you can specify the ramp rate. (I'm looking for 1°F/min, at least after fully wetting the grain initially) I don't think either the ClawHammer or BräuSupply controllers can specify that parameter.

Since I raise and rinse my bag (and friends raise and rinse their baskets) anyway during mash-out, I'm wondering what the effects will be on overall quality and time by just rinsing it raised from the start.

My hypothesis is that extraction will happen faster since the grain will constantly be rinsed and thus the wort won't develop saturation pockets and the wort will be more homogenized. Of course, the target ramp rate that I use for immersion may be too slow for this method and can be significantly faster. It may also be possible to wet the grain at a lower temp to avoid doughing, and then quickly ramp up to saccharification with recirculation over a very short period.

Thoughts, concerns, jokes?

 

[Zambi]

Interesting....
I just wonder if the enzxymes will have enough time to do their work.
I think that is also the biggest difference in the analogy with coffee. No alpha & beta amylases in coffee (as far as I know)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Interesting....
I just wonder if the enzxymes will have enough time to do their work.
I think that is also the biggest difference in the analogy with coffee. No alpha & beta amylases in coffee (as far as I know)

They'll get as much time as they need. Either I'll do a slow ramp which will provide plenty of time (already the case with my current method) and/or I'll just hold-off the mash-out step until full conversion. I never mash by time—always to 100% conversion. (or close enough to target gravity with a negative Iodine test.)

I'm really curious to see if this speeds up the process. (I currently recirculate with a slow ramp and stir every 10 minutes) Also, I'm curious if the flavor, aroma or any other sensory properties are affected.

If I'm not mistaken, one manufacturer used to offer a system that was effectively stacked kettles, but I don't know if the mash was immersed like all others, or if they were employing a similar process I'm describing. (don't recall who made the system, but I remember seeing it about 6 years ago or so.)

 

[Craigerrr]

The first thing that comes to mind, and not to be negative, but I would think that the actual temperature of the mash would be difficult if not impossible to control. If you are "rinsing" which will be the "mass", the water or the grain?
Interesting idea though, do it in the name of science!

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

The first thing that comes to mind, and not to be negative, but I would think that the actual temperature of the mash would be difficult if not impossible to control. If you are "rinsing" which will be the "mass", the water or the grain?
Interesting idea though, do it in the name of science!

That is an interesting question, and I wonder, "which is more important, the temperature of the grain, or the wort, or do both need to be in sync?" Recalling that everything happens over a range rather than hard steps, I'll hazard as long as I'm close, that's good enough (within a few degrees of each other) with the caveat being care must be taken not to flirt with 168℉ too early.

If I get to try this, I shall take good measurements of everything, probably several times throughout the mash. If I get to use the BrewCommander, I think it has two temp probe jacks. I'll rig one in the mash and the other in the wort and see how they track with refractometer readings. (I'll spot check anyway if not)

 

[Bigbre04]

you will likely run into problems since you really need the temp and time for the enzymes to convert the starches into sugars. It sounds like you are trying to essentially "vorlauf" your mash.

My system does this to some extent, pumping hot water up through the bottom of the grain bed and letting it flow out the top into the overall volume. Personally i hate my system, mainly because it leaves so much grain in the kettle and it is so damn slow.

You really need that rough hour at your specific temps to convert the sugars. fully covering your grain while flowing is fairly important for the sugar conversion. I guess you could slow trickle water in over the course of the hour long mash, but that would make it very difficult to maintain ph, temp, etc.

big boys use a mash mixer that has an impeller and is heated. and/or a cereal cooker depending on where they are in the world. they then mash out to stop the enzymes and pump it to their Lautertun. these systems are VERY effecient but not something that is easy to replicate on a small scale(unless you are german and money is infinite).

 

[Dave Y]

^^^^
THIS.
[I think] What you're describing is much like an All in One system with a basket elevated over the water/wort, recirculating. Just like @Bigbre04 said, maintaining temps during the mash will be problematic. I do this at the end of the mash on my system. I do about 10m mash out, lift the basket, hold the temp for about another 10, check gravity and begin the sparge.

If your recirculation flow slows even for a minute, the mash 'bed' temp will fall even further. The malt pipe is uninsulated, whereas at least partially submerged with recirculation, the temperature is much more steady.

I've wondered if I could do at least part of the mash like this but not enough to risk a brew day

 

[Craigerrr]

If your recirculation flow slows even for a minute, the mash 'bed' temp will fall even further.

Sort of supports what I was suggesting. When the grain is submerged, the water is the mass and you can have some degree of control over it depending on how you mash. If you are running your mash water/wort over the grains like a drip coffee maker, there is no mass, no way to predict or even try to control the temperature. Well I guess you can predict it, but there will be losses as it flows through the grain.

 

[Craigerrr]

There will be a stratification, the temperature will be higher at the top lower at the bottom, physics...

 

[Dave Y]

Sort of supports what I was suggesting. When the grain is submerged, the water is the mass and you can have some degree of control over it depending on how you mash. If you are running your mash water/wort over the grains like a drip coffee maker, there is no mass, no way to predict or even try to control the temperature. Well I guess you can predict it, but there will be losses as it flows through the grain.

That's what I'm sayin', eh!?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

It sounds like you’re describing a RIMs system. I have one and it works awesome.

 

[Bigbre04]

my system has the basket submerged and it seals to the bottom of the kettle. it pumps from the outside of the kettle up through the middle and cascasdes down around the kettle. there is a temp probe in the bottom under the tube.

the temp difference eventually evens out, but it has to run for a while to get there. this is why i mash in at 151 and then have my temp set to 149. over time, the temp will level out but it takes time and allows the top half to sit at 145-147 while it warms up for about 10 mins.

personally i greatly dislike my system, but it is what i am stuck with for now. given the option of a 2 or more vessel brewhouse i would certainly choose that. but i would also prefer steam over direct fire over electric any day of the week....we can dream though!