weizen

[Zambi]

Not yet a recipe, but some questions on how to brew.

I got quite a primitive set up.
Gas, pot, biab and mash by putting pot with bag and malt inside a duvet lined cooler box.

Most weizen recipes I see have a rest at fairly low temps to enhance clove taste.
Could I heat (hardly and heating necessary) to that temperature (ok, little above) then add grains. Put in cooler box to maintain temperature.
Remove grains and keep to the side.
Heat the liquid and continue as per 1-step mash?

Alternatively, I have to try heat up in the pot and construct a false bottom. But method described above would fit my system better

 

[Megary]

NOTE: I am no Weizen expert brewer.

But I don't like the idea of removing the grains.

Can you add hot water to your pot to get from your rest temp to mash temp? The added hot water would essentially get you to "full volume".

If not, I would just skip the rest.

Following, for better answers...

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

I'm not a BIAB brewer and as @Megary suggested, a hot water infusion would be the easiest option. Removing the grains, heating the wort, and returning grain to kettle to continue the mash sounds workable because you do smaller batches. You could also do a single mash temperature somewhere between the two mash temps.

 

[Minbari]

I think the low temp rest is just a protein rest. Wheat has allot of protein and that rest will help clear it later. You don't have to do it

 

[GFHomebrew]

Ferulic acid rest I'm sure it's called.

I've never done a ferulic acid rest on the few wheat beers I've brewed in my time.

I just mashed a two step mash my usually routine.

When I used gas heating on my BIAB set-up I'd just lift the bag off the bottom when heating to my next rest whilst stiring wort with a spoon .

Good luck Zambezi I'm sure you'll like this style for sure.

Another thing I hear is wheat beer is driven alot on yeast pitch and fermenting temperature.

Waiting for @Donoroto to weigh in his thoughts.


A link to frulic acid rest test

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2010/06/04/how-much-effect-does-a-ferulic-acid-rest-have/

And brulosophy s take

https://brulosophy.com/2019/06/17/the-ferulic-acid-rest-effect-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Yooper]

Not yet a recipe, but some questions on how to brew.

I got quite a primitive set up.
Gas, pot, biab and mash by putting pot with bag and malt inside a duvet lined cooler box.

Most weizen recipes I see have a rest at fairly low temps to enhance clove taste.
Could I heat (hardly and heating necessary) to that temperature (ok, little above) then add grains. Put in cooler box to maintain temperature.
Remove grains and keep to the side.
Heat the liquid and continue as per 1-step mash?

Alternatively, I have to try heat up in the pot and construct a false bottom. But method described above would fit my system better

In short, no you don't want to remove the grains and then heat the water as you'll denature the enzymes if you go above about 160ish degrees for any length of time, and to raise the temperature you'll need to go above 160. You COULD however pull out a portion of the grains (thick mash, little liquid) and raise the temperature that way. You can bring the grains to a boil and add back to your main mash, and do a decoction.

The only weizens that I would do a ferulic acid rest on would be hefeweizen, generally. Maybe a weizenbock, and that could benefit from a decoction.

To make it easy, though, I'd do a two step infusion. That is do your first step at 112F or whatever you're planning in a thick mash, like 1:1 or even less, and then add your hotter water for the second step of the infusion. Our calculator in the recipe builder can give you the amounts and temperatures.

 

[Yooper]

I think the low temp rest is just a protein rest. Wheat has allot of protein and that rest will help clear it later. You don't have to do it

No, a ferulic acid rest is a lower temperature rest than a protein rest, usually around 100-112F or so. It brings out the precursor for the molecule that creates that 'clove' aroma and flavor. I think it may just be better to choose a yeast strain that is higher in producing it rather than adding a ferulic acid rest as that is more dependable and more easily produced.

 

[Minbari]

No, a ferulic acid rest is a lower temperature rest than a protein rest, usually around 100-112F or so. It brings out the precursor for the molecule that creates that 'clove' aroma and flavor. I think it may just be better to choose a yeast strain that is higher in producing it rather than adding a ferulic acid rest as that is more dependable and more easily produced.

Had not heard of that before. Learn something new

 

[GFHomebrew]

No, a ferulic acid rest is a lower temperature rest than a protein rest, usually around 100-112F or so. It brings out the precursor for the molecule that creates that 'clove' aroma and flavor. I think it may just be better to choose a yeast strain that is higher in producing it rather than adding a ferulic acid rest as that is more dependable and more easily produced.

Or ferment on the colder side.

 

[Donoroto]

Waiting for @Donoroto to weigh in his thoughts.

According to Palmer, four 'rests' are used:

104F (40C): Breaks down beta-glucans, or used to create more ferulic acid' (clove character)
122F (50C): Protein rest. Not really needed with modern malts, but with unmalted wheat or a large percentage of adjuncts the wort will benefit
145F (63C): Highest fermentability and yield for modern highly-modified malts
158F (70C): Typical high-end of regular conversion.

Now, tank these temperatures as typical, but a few degrees up or down will give (slightly) different results. Experiment!

For my Hefeweitzen, I mash at 105 (20+ min), 144 (25 min) and 154 (30 min). I did try a single mash at 154 once, and the beer was perfectly fine, but not quite as 'good'.

If you can change the temperatures, then do so. My Brewziulla takes over 30 minutes to go from 104 to 144, as I use only the 500 Watt element.
Decoctions (remove some of the mash, boil it for 10-15 minutes, pour it back in) are the traditional way to step mash, and using about 1/4 to 1/3 of the mash for each will typically raise temperatures to these four points.

 

[GFHomebrew]

According to Palmer, four 'rests' are used:

104F (40C): Breaks down beta-glucans, or used to create more ferulic acid' (clove character)
122F (50C): Protein rest. Not really needed with modern malts, but with unmalted wheat or a large percentage of adjuncts the wort will benefit
145F (63C): Highest fermentability and yield for modern highly-modified malts
158F (70C): Typical high-end of regular conversion.

Now, tank these temperatures as typical, but a few degrees up or down will give (slightly) different results. Experiment!

For my Hefeweitzen, I mash at 105 (20+ min), 144 (25 min) and 154 (30 min). I did try a single mash at 154 once, and the beer was perfectly fine, but not quite as 'good'.

If you can change the temperatures, then do so. My Brewziulla takes over 30 minutes to go from 104 to 144, as I use only the 500 Watt element.
Decoctions (remove some of the mash, boil it for 10-15 minutes, pour it back in) are the traditional way to step mash, and using about 1/4 to 1/3 of the mash for each will typically raise temperatures to these four points.

I don't know anyone on here who brewes more wheat beer cheers Don.

Care to elaborate what you've done in regards to yeast choice and pitching rates please?

And what's your favourite wheat % to barley malt?

I know from my previous cracks it's around 50% wheat.

Two of my not so great bevvys I've done
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/425369/lemongrass-wheat

This one I did for Christmas one year had to brew it twice burnt the wort on the element first crack
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/636963/strawberry-wheatbier

 

[Zambi]

Yeah, I did mean ferulic acid rest to enhance clove taste.

What I know as weizen is probably what you all call hefeweizen. I've brewed a fair amount of wheat beers (as I had weevils in the wheat malt and needed to finish it quickly).
I got "clean" wheat malt now.
The yeast I will be using is M20 https://mangrovejacks.com/products/m20-bavarian-wheat-10g

I'll be reading up a bit more and see how I can work things with my set up

 

[Zambi]

In short, no you don't want to remove the grains and then heat the water as you'll denature the enzymes if you go above about 160ish degrees for any length of time, and to raise the temperature you'll need to go above 160. You COULD however pull out a portion of the grains (thick mash, little liquid) and raise the temperature that way. You can bring the grains to a boil and add back to your main mash, and do a decoction.

The only weizens that I would do a ferulic acid rest on would be hefeweizen, generally. Maybe a weizenbock, and that could benefit from a decoction.

To make it easy, though, I'd do a two step infusion. That is do your first step at 112F or whatever you're planning in a thick mash, like 1:1 or even less, and then add your hotter water for the second step of the infusion. Our calculator in the recipe builder can give you the amounts and temperatures.

I didn't think about denaturing the enzymes. Thanks for pointing it out.

Current thinking (still needs fine tuning).
I normally use about 2 kg malt in 7.5 ltr water for a 1 step mash.
To try and do this ferulic acid rest, I put all malt in 4 or 5 litre water at 45 oC (113 F)
Drain the bag, heat liquid plus 2 litre water to about 67 oC (153 F), put bag with grains back in and add hot water (thermos can?) to compensate for temperature loss, due to adding the grains, and bring temp back to 67 oC?

Looks doable, but maybe I am missing something?

 

[Yooper]

I didn't think about denaturing the enzymes. Thanks for pointing it out.

Current thinking (still needs fine tuning).
I normally use about 2 kg malt in 7.5 ltr water for a 1 step mash.
To try and do this ferulic acid rest, I put all malt in 4 or 5 litre water at 45 oC (113 F)
Drain the bag, heat liquid plus 2 litre water to about 67 oC (153 F), put bag with grains back in and add hot water (thermos can?) to compensate for temperature loss, due to adding the grains, and bring temp back to 67 oC?

Looks doable, but maybe I am missing something?

Can you decrease your mash water a bit more, and increase the infusion water amount and then bring that to a boil (or whatever temperature is needed) and do it that way?

 

[Zambi]

Can you decrease your mash water a bit more, and increase the infusion water amount and then bring that to a boil (or whatever temperature is needed) and do it that way?

I'm not sure I understand.

Maximum amount of liquid I can use is 7.5 litres with around 2 kg grains.
(I sparge and add cold water after (semi)cooling to get to OG and about 10 litre wort volume)

I roughly figured 4-5 litre for ferulic acid rest, drain, end up with about 3 litre liquid.
Heat to 67 (3 ltr x 67 oC)
Add grains (3? x 40? oC)
Add close to boiling water
If I use 4 litre for the ferulic acid rest, then I got 3.5 litre close to boiling water to get to final mash temp of 65-68 oC (if 5 litre, then 2.5)

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure I understand.

Maximum amount of liquid I can use is 7.5 litres with around 2 kg grains.
(I sparge and add cold water after (semi)cooling to get to OG and about 10 litre wort volume)

I roughly figured 4-5 litre for ferulic acid rest, drain, end up with about 3 litre liquid.
Heat to 67 (3 ltr x 67 oC)
Add grains (3? x 40? oC)
Add close to boiling water
If I use 4 litre for the ferulic acid rest, then I got 3.5 litre close to boiling water to get to final mash temp of 65-68 oC (if 5 litre, then 2.5)

Can you not add cold water after cooling and instead use that to heat up your mash? I think that trying to do a feurlic acid rest and a partial boil is going to be exceedingly difficult.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Personally I wouldn't bother with this rest.

Brew it as per normal.

Then batch two go crazy on the Ferulic acid and i pray you can taste the difference .

But I know when a brewer gets a thought in their head theirs no shifting them...


Is it not the yeast choice that creates them flavours in a wheat beer?

 

[Donoroto]

Is it not the yeast choice that creates them flavours in a wheat beer?

Yep, the yeast choice will do 95% of the work for you. Pick a non-weitzen yeast and you'll not get the banana, clove and bready flavor you usually get with weitzen/hefeweitzen.

I use hefeweitzen to distinguish it from Weiss (Berliner) and Krystall-weitzen (clear). The Hefe is the Yeast (I know you know that, but others might not).

 

[GFHomebrew]

Yep, the yeast choice will do 95% of the work for you. Pick a non-weitzen yeast and you'll not get the banana, clove and bready flavor you usually get with weitzen/hefeweitzen.

I use hefeweitzen to distinguish it from Weiss (Berliner) and Krystall-weitzen (clear). The Hefe is the Yeast (I know you know that, but others might not).

Amen just thought I'd point it out or better yet pry it out of you

 

[Zambi]

OK, I will go with Ben's suggestion and just do a one step maisch, followed by a 2nd batch more experimental batch.
What temperature for the 1-step?
What fermentation temperature for both cloves & banana, but not too much of each?
I'll be using Mangrove Jack's M20, Bavarian wheat