Salted Caramel Porter Recipe Draft?

[Brewer #479684]

This is my first attempt at designing my own all-grain recipe, aiming for a salted caramel porter, and I am hoping to get some thoughts from people more experienced than I before I take the time and money to experiment with this. I am really unsure about the grain bill (will this produce an actual caramel flavor? too much specialty grain?) and if I should be aiming for a higher FG than what is currently predicted, also on the fence about aroma hops, but please let me know what you think about all aspects of this draft

Here is the link: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1636617/salted-caramel-porter

Mash @ 155f for 60 min

5 lb Briess 2-row 41.7%
2lb Munich Light 16.7%
1lb Caramel 60 8.3%
1lb Caramel 120 8.3%
1lb Pale chocolate 8.3%
1lb Flaked Oats 8.3%
1lb Candi Sugar - Amber 8.3% (late boil addition)

60 min boil

1oz Cluster hops @ 40min
1oz Callista hops @ 10 min
1oz Sea Salt @ 10 min

Yeast: Safale US-05 (maybe US-04 for a higher FG?)

Predicted OG: 1.062, FG: 1.012, ABV 6.6%, IBU 28.5


Thanks in advance!

 

[Yooper]

I’ve never made a beer like this, but 120l crystal is not caramel like at all. It’s more like toffee or a burnt sugar. I wouldn’t use that if you were going for a sweet caramel flavor. Chocolate is pretty roasty, which you will want for a porter but it may be too roasty and cover the caramel. Not sure why the oats are in there(?)- what will they bring to the beer?

 

[J A]

I wouldn't choose Cluster hops for this - flavor is too distinct. Smooth, neutral bittering would be preferable. Maybe Magnum or Willamette or a UK hop. I don't think you need aroma hops at all...just nail the IBUs and let the malt and other flavors take over. Like @Yooper says, your dark crystal isn't adding caramel but may be useful in small measure. I'd look at maybe some Honey Malt to increase sweetness and throw some C-40 in there for those medium-sweet, caramel notes. Pale Chocolate is my preferred roast in that it gives good flavor along with deep roast notes. Your Oats may add some depth of flavor to carry the sweeter notes and mouthfeel might help with the perception of the caramel flavor.
Based on my experience, I've gotten the most caramel/toffee/butterscotch flavor from Maris Otter on Nottingham or S-04 yeast fermented just on the cool side. The noticeable diacetyl production really increases the perception of those flavors.
In a porter, I doubt that you'll get much caramel flavor without an actual extract. I used some caramel extract to flavor a stout and it worked really nicely.

 

[Brewer #479684]

Thank you both for your replies and advice. I have seen people talk about using malts of increasing darkness to bridge the flavors between the low and high lovibond malts. Is this something I should give credence to? If so, would C-120 have a role to play in that aspect, in a lower amount?

I wouldn't choose Cluster hops for this - flavor is too distinct. Smooth, neutral bittering would be preferable. Maybe Magnum or Willamette or a UK hop. I don't think you need aroma hops at all...just nail the IBUs and let the malt and other flavors take over. Like @Yooper says, your dark crystal isn't adding caramel but may be useful in small measure. I'd look at maybe some Honey Malt to increase sweetness and throw some C-40 in there for those medium-sweet, caramel notes. Pale Chocolate is my preferred roast in that it gives good flavor along with deep roast notes. Your Oats may add some depth of flavor to carry the sweeter notes and mouthfeel might help with the perception of the caramel flavor.
Based on my experience, I've gotten the most caramel/toffee/butterscotch flavor from Maris Otter on Nottingham or S-04 yeast fermented just on the cool side. The noticeable diacetyl production really increases the perception of those flavors.
In a porter, I doubt that you'll get much caramel flavor without an actual extract. I used some caramel extract to flavor a stout and it worked really nicely.

@J A Thanks for your notes about the hops. I think I am definitely gonna add some flavor extract. How much honey malt and/or C-40 would you suggest, and should that replace anything? If I were to go with Maris Otter, would replacing the Munich malt with that be worthwhile?

 

[Donoroto]

I would remove the candi sugar, this will not give you sweetness, but exactly the opposite: dryness, or lack of sweetness. This is because the sugar will ferment completely, leaving you with no sweetness, and kinda bring the beer away from caramel.

If you’re looking for greater body or mouthfeel, that somewhat syrupy thickness that a Porter might have, the flaked oats could be one way to get it. You get that from proteins and/or unfermentable sugars. Roasted malts have higher unfermentable sugars (dextrins), and some grains have higher protein. You might pick 5%-ish of either or both.

 

[Brewer #479684]

I would remove the candi sugar, this will not give you sweetness, but exactly the opposite: dryness, or lack of sweetness. This is because the sugar will ferment completely, leaving you with no sweetness, and kinda bring the beer away from caramel.

If you’re looking for greater body or mouthfeel, that somewhat syrupy thickness that a Porter might have, the flaked oats could be one way to get it. You get that from proteins and/or unfermentable sugars. Roasted malts have higher unfermentable sugars (dextrins), and some grains have higher protein. You might pick 5%-ish of either or both.

Thank you! That's a good point. Do you think adding something like lactose or adding more malt with the dextrins you refer to could counteract that dryness while still allowing me to get some flavors from the syrup?

 

[Minbari]

Nothing wrong with lastose, but there isn't allot of sweetness as much as mouthfeel.

Just my opinion, but i disagree with the others the high crystal and a candy sugar in the 180L will give you carmel notes, even a burnt sugar or deep toffee will taste like caramel when out up against the deep roast of a porter.

I do agree on the hops, those will ruin it. Go with a nice noble like ekg or fuggles

 

[J A]

Thank you both for your replies and advice. I have seen people talk about using malts of increasing darkness to bridge the flavors between the low and high lovibond malts. Is this something I should give credence to? If so, would C-120 have a role to play in that aspect, in a lower amount?

@J A Thanks for your notes about the hops. I think I am definitely gonna add some flavor extract. How much honey malt and/or C-40 would you suggest, and should that replace anything? If I were to go with Maris Otter, would replacing the Munich malt with that be worthwhile?

If it was me, I'd push toward an oatmeal stout sort of recipe instead of porter and go full UK to get there.
Maybe
7 lbs Maris Otter
1 lb Honey Malt or similar
1 lb Caramel 40 or look into UK Brown Malt, Special Roast B, CaraMunich 2 or 3- all can add sweet notes that persist
1 lb Pale chocolate
1 lb Flaked Oats
Adjust color with more of the 40-60 range malt and maybe small addition of your darker Crystal malt or a couple ounces of Roasted Barley or Midnight Wheat, etc

Mash at 152F, maybe throw in a little extra alpha rest at 158F to wring out extra dextrins

Bitter with Willamette (that's what I keep on hand for British styles and it does a very good job) or Fuggles or whatever

Ferment with Nottingham strain (I've been using the Apex version - Sherwood) and let it run around 64F for the first day or maybe two and ramp up to 68-70F

Secondary or keg with your salt and very conservative addition of caramel extract, depending on whether you've generated a detectable level of diacetyl in the fermentation.

 

[Bigbre04]

A SMALL amount of salt goes a long way. you are looking at using a couple grams not an ounze. i used 75g of salt in 2bbls of gose'. add the salt into the finished beer, no reason to stress your yeasties out.

Caramel is a tough flavor without using caramel flavoring. which is fine, but you cant just use caramel as it will ferment out.

Mash temp is very important with dark beers like this. shoot for 152-153f. this will give you a nice balance of sweetness and fermentability.

if you run the recipe as you wrote it in the first post it will work.

I am a big fan of layering in the crystal malts with chocolate and midnight wheat. I also use extra special malt which is somewhere between a roasted and a caramel malt. using the midnight wheat allows you to get very dark without the additional bitterness that you get from black malt.


This is my chocolate raspberry stout which was very very good.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1594533

Normal stout also very good.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1437455

 

[Sandy Feet]

If it was me, I'd push toward an oatmeal stout sort of recipe instead of porter and go full UK to get there.
Maybe
7 lbs Maris Otter
1 lb Honey Malt or similar
1 lb Caramel 40 or look into UK Brown Malt, Special Roast B, CaraMunich 2 or 3- all can add sweet notes that persist
1 lb Pale chocolate
1 lb Flaked Oats
Adjust color with more of the 40-60 range malt and maybe small addition of your darker Crystal malt or a couple ounces of Roasted Barley or Midnight Wheat, etc

Mash at 152F, maybe throw in a little extra alpha rest at 158F to wring out extra dextrins

Bitter with Willamette (that's what I keep on hand for British styles and it does a very good job) or Fuggles or whatever

Ferment with Nottingham strain (I've been using the Apex version - Sherwood) and let it run around 64F for the first day or maybe two and ramp up to 68-70F

Secondary or keg with your salt and very conservative addition of caramel extract, depending on whether you've generated a detectable level of diacetyl in the fermentation.

Agree with the Otter.
I don't do Caramel ones, but A Chocolate 350/Munich/C120 mix does work nicely with Maris Otter and with some Flaked Oats. Guinness style yeast (WLP004) also works very well.

 

[Donoroto]

Thank you! That's a good point. Do you think adding something like lactose or adding more malt with the dextrins you refer to could counteract that dryness while still allowing me to get some flavors from the syrup?

My opinion is that some lactose will mouthfeel and a limited sweetness. Caramel malts are higher in dextrins and will deliver that subtle sweetness you are looking for, and add some mouthfeel.

As Yooper noted, 120 is pretty roasty, 60 is fine for a porter and 30 is not unreasonable. If you are buying these locally, or just have a few extra dollars, get a variety of these, you will get the idea by being able to taste and smell each. (If local, ask for half a teaspoon of each as samples, crush them a bit and sniff and taste a few grains).

That shouldn’t discount the other advice given - I can’t disagree with any of it.

As with many hobbies, ask 10 Brewers for their opinions and you’ll get 12 answers.