Pre Pro Lager

[Sandy Feet]

I was playing around on one of the other threads the other night, and Josh gave me a start with an idea for a yeast.
I have never done a lager before, and I want to try one in January. I have looked at a few videos and read some online articles. As a result, I understand a few things, but am lacking knowledge with some other things.
Pre Pro Lager | Classic American Pilsner BIAB Beer Recipe | Brewer's Friend (brewersfriend.com)
Above is my idea up to this point: I can always make changes.
My questions are the following:
1. I need some help with a lager schedule (both time and temperature). The homebrew store says that they vary greatly.
2. If I use the yeast I have selected, my understanding is that I can do a direct pitch if the wort is warm enough. I usually use 2 packets, so I am thinking 4 for a lager. I cannot chill below 78F with my wort chiller, but I do have a refrigerator than can get as cold as I need. If I really needed, I could pitch the next day.
3. I am using a very simple BIAB set-up, so I cannot do a protein rest with the 6 row. Would I need to increase the boil time, or is a standard 60 minutes enough?

Thanks for any insight that you can give to a lager newbie.

 

[Minbari]

I was playing around on one of the other threads the other night, and Josh gave me a start with an idea for a yeast.
I have never done a lager before, and I want to try one in January. I have looked at a few videos and read some online articles. As a result, I understand a few things, but am lacking knowledge with some other things.
Pre Pro Lager | Classic American Pilsner BIAB Beer Recipe | Brewer's Friend (brewersfriend.com)
Above is my idea up to this point: I can always make changes.
My questions are the following:
1. I need some help with a lager schedule (both time and temperature). The homebrew store says that they vary greatly.
2. If I use the yeast I have selected, my understanding is that I can do a direct pitch if the wort is warm enough. I usually use 2 packets, so I am thinking 4 for a lager. I cannot chill below 78F with my wort chiller, but I do have a refrigerator than can get as cold as I need. If I really needed, I could pitch the next day.
3. I am using a very simple BIAB set-up, so I cannot do a protein rest with the 6 row. Would I need to increase the boil time, or is a standard 60 minutes enough?

Thanks for any insight that you can give to a lager newbie.

I have done a few.

1). I ferm cold, then do a warm diacytl rest, then crash. Time will vary based on yeast and gravity.
2) as long as your refer can get it down to 40F , then you are good to go. Most lager yeast will want 50F to ferm at
3) why can't you? I do one on every batch. Set your stroke water to 126+\- so your test temp is 122F, then heat it to sacc rest after that.

Boil time is the same from my experience. Will be dictated by your hop schedule more than everything

 

[GFHomebrew]

You'll be fine 34/70 is a very forgiving yeast.
Skip the protine rest and just do a single infusion middle of the saccrification range and you'll have a beer that's a tastebud tickler.

The boil times your call.
I'm down with 30mins but that's me.

See what some other seasoned lager brewers have to say though

 

[Sandy Feet]

I have done a few.

1). I ferm cold, then do a warm diacytl rest, then crash. Time will vary based on yeast and gravity.
2) as long as your refer can get it down to 40F , then you are good to go. Most lager yeast will want 50F to ferm at
3) why can't you? I do one on every batch. Set your stroke water to 126+\- so your test temp is 122F, then heat it to sacc rest after that.

Boil time is the same from my experience. Will be dictated by your hop schedule more than everything

I don't have the basket. It is bag only. Putting grains directly on propane heat will scorch them. I get to strike water temperature and add the grains after they have been taken off the heat.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I don't have the basket. It is bag only. Putting grains directly on propane heat will scorch them. I get to strike water temperature and add the grains after they have been taken off the heat.

When I brewed on gas I'd just lift the bag clear of the bottom and blast kettle with heat until next mash temp reached.
Maybe something you might be able to do...

 

[Sandy Feet]

Also, do you lager with one specific temperature for a period of time? Some of the conversations that I see want a specific temperature for a period of time and then a 2 degree bump up each day for a period of time up to a max temp and then a cold crash for a period of time. I am trying to get an understanding of some timetables on the temps: i.e. 50ish for x many weeks, x days to get to temperature 2, temperature 2 for x days, and a cold crash for x days. I see things that are all over the place which is why I am looking for guidance.
I do plan on revisiting the temperatures that the yeast likes and trying something in the middle for at least part of the fermentation.
I plan SG somewhere in the mid 1.05's with the dry yeast in the recipe.
I am using a standard refrigerator, so I can probably get down the 30s if I need to in the winter.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I'm no guide to traditional Lager brewing sandy.

But I'll drop the wort as low as I can into the yeasts spec range hold it there at that temp until fermentation is near done 4 days usually then I'll let it free rise into a Diacytle rest also drives fermentation home usually 19c ish.

@HighVoltageMan!
Or @Bulin's Milker Bucket Brews
Will have a more traditional Lager method I believe.

 

[Minbari]

When I brewed on gas I'd just lift the bag clear of the bottom and blast kettle with heat until next mash temp reached.
Maybe something you might be able to do...

exactly what I was gonna suggest

 

[MaxStout]

Seconded on the method by @Trialben if you want to do a P-rest. Alternatively, you can always set up a false bottom in your kettle. I have these for my kettles (they make several different sizes), and it's nice to just turn on the heat without worry.

 

[Minbari]

Seconded on the method by @Trialben if you want to do a P-rest. Alternatively, you can always set up a false bottom in your kettle. I have these for my kettles (they make several different sizes), and it's nice to just turn on the heat without worry.

I made a false bottom on mine out of one of those splatter screens for frying stuff in a pan? just added legs to it.

 

[Josh Hughes]

I don't have the basket. It is bag only. Putting grains directly on propane heat will scorch them. I get to strike water temperature and add the grains after they have been taken off the heat.

Pull the bag off the bottom while heat source is on. That’s what I do.

 

[Josh Hughes]

Also, do you lager with one specific temperature for a period of time? Some of the conversations that I see want a specific temperature for a period of time and then a 2 degree bump up each day for a period of time up to a max temp and then a cold crash for a period of time. I am trying to get an understanding of some timetables on the temps: i.e. 50ish for x many weeks, x days to get to temperature 2, temperature 2 for x days, and a cold crash for x days. I see things that are all over the place which is why I am looking for guidance.
I do plan on revisiting the temperatures that the yeast likes and trying something in the middle for at least part of the fermentation.
I plan SG somewhere in the mid 1.05's with the dry yeast in the recipe.
I am using a standard refrigerator, so I can probably get down the 30s if I need to in the winter.

When I’m doing a traditional lager at lager temps I go in the 50s until 50% attenuation then let it go into the 60s. So usually 2-3 once fermentation kicks in aggressively in the 50s then let it go to finish and cleanup

 

[Sandy Feet]

When I’m doing a traditional lager at lager temps I go in the 50s until 50% attenuation then let it go into the 60s. So usually 2-3 once fermentation kicks in aggressively in the 50s then let it go to finish and cleanup

Again, excuse me as I get my head around this. I hate to spend all the time doing this and screw it up over something small. Looking at the Fermentis web site, this yeast looks like it has a sweet spot around 57F. They also say you can direct pitch as long as it is above 68F.
If I were brewing 5 gallons and had 4 packets of dry yeast (double what I would normally use), I could theoretically pitch around 78F. From there, I could immediately put the fermenter into a 50F refrigerator for a few hours and then turn the refrigerator up to around 57 for about two weeks. After that time, bump the temperature to around 65F for another week. After that, and I'm guessing with my setup, the long process is going to come once the beer gets transferred to the bottle. It would likely carbonate at 68F for a couple of weeks and then sit in the bottle to condition for another month or so. Does this sound somewhat close, and does it sound like I am trying anything stupid?
If I don't carbonate out of the fermenter at 68 with additional priming sugar, when is this thing going to carbonate?

 

[Minbari]

looks good to me. for your first lager, just remeber, as always, even if it isnt perfect. it will still be beer.

only thing I would change is after your 65F for a week(or maybe 3 days), add a 2-4 week lagering at under 40F before you bottle it.

 

[Sandy Feet]

O.K. that makes sense. It sounds like the yeast can still be revived to carbonate when it gets time to bottle.
Will everything be O.K. sitting on that much yeast for 5 or 6 weeks in the fermenter before getting transferred into a bottling bucket?

 

[Minbari]

O.K. that makes sense. It sounds like the yeast can still be revived to carbonate when it gets time to bottle.
Will everything be O.K. sitting on that much yeast for 5 or 6 weeks in the fermenter before getting transferred into a bottling bucket?

In 8 years, never have used a secondary.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

I brew mostly lagers and they can be intimidating at first, but after you done a 100 or so, they're a piece of cake. The best advice I can give you is to select a yeast easy to work with.

Fermentis 34/70 lager yeast is about the easiest yeast to use. This yeast can chew through a beer at 48F, you can raise the temperature to the mid 60's and the yeast will preform really well at those temperatures too. It has a dry finish and has a decent malt profile. The down side of this yeast is it doesn't produce malt bombs, so it's not the best for a Helles or a Czech Pils or an Oktoberfest, etc. It's the best yeast for American Lager, as far as I'm concerned, crisp, clean. Delicious. It's pretty good for German Pils too.

Don't be afraid of pitching too much, most home brewers go cheap on the pitch with less than stellar results.

Pitch it on the cold side below the fermentation temp and let it come up, even if you ferment in the 60's. If you pitch warm, the yeast takes off really fast and can produce fruity esters. If you can, ferment in the low to mid 50's. I make an American lager with it at 48F. It's little slow to start and a lot slower to ferment at lower temperatures, but it's cleaner. It can take 2 weeks to get to the final gravity at lower temps, but if you do it in the low 60's, it should be done in a week or so. D-rest is really not necessary unless you ferment at lower temps. Typically I will let the beer set for a full 2 weeks at fermentation temperature for good measure, then I just crash it to 32-33F. No need to drop slowly. You can lager it 2-6 weeks. I start drinking them as soon as the yeast drops. They do get better after about 4-6 weeks at 33F or so.

If you decide to use a liquid yeast, you should aerate the wort at pitch with pure oxygen. Lager yeasts require higher levels of oxygen to promote a healthy fermentation. With a dry yeast, there is no need to aerate unless you build a starter with it or re-pitch from a previous batch of beer. Dry yeast have a boat load of sterol and lipid reserves and the dehydration process keeps those reserves intact, so no need for the yeast to build those up after pitch.

More advice: Skip the 6 row, modern American 2 row Pils malt has about the same characteristics as 6 row. I would recommend Rahr North Star Pils or Rahr Premium Pils or something similar.

If you use a adjunct, Minute Rice is really nice. Just put it in with the mash, no precooking and it doesn't gum up the mash. I have had trouble in the past getting flaked rice from the local home brew store and it was rancid.

Don't get too hung up on when to lager or how long to ferment. When the beer is done it's done. If you miss the d-rest and the beer gets hits FG before you had a chance to raise the temp, just raise the temp and let it set for 3-4 days.

Good luck!

 

[Donoroto]

O.K. that makes sense. It sounds like the yeast can still be revived to carbonate when it gets time to bottle.
Will everything be O.K. sitting on that much yeast for 5 or 6 weeks in the fermenter before getting transferred into a bottling bucket?

5 to 6 weeks is fine, 5 to 6 months is cutting it closer.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I found a good podcast this morning that let me understand a few more things without wasting my time. Some of this advice helps quite a bit too.
Based on what y'all are telling me, I guess I am better off letting this sit overnight and direct pitching it in the morning right around the upper 40s/50 and maybe bringing it up to around 55 for a couple of weeks. Before the crash, I might bring it up into the 60s for a 3 -day D rest for the hell of it.
It sounds like a lager sitting for that period of time on yeast is not a big deal. I'm thinking of 4 weeks in the 30s.
I will revisit the grain options. I'm not too worried about the availability of flaked corn, and with BIAB I'm not too worried about the mash. I just need more of everything because my adjuncts don't convert well.
Now, if I'm pitching that much yeast, do you think they will be healthy enough after maybe a 4-week crash to bottle carbonate?
I heard something on the podcast about repitching a neutral ale yeast and bottling at normal ale temperatures.
If I can assume the lager yeast will be healthy enough, I assume I would bottle carbonate somewhere in the low 60s for 2 or three weeks?

 

[Donoroto]

My opinion, which isn't worth much: Pitch a little high (60-65), ferment 2-3 weeks, d-rest 7-10 degrees warmer for a week, if no airlock activity (or sg is stable) cold crash for as long as you can manage (weeks), when patience wears thin bottle it, the yeast will be fine. Carbonate at cool room temps.

I will caution you, though, wait for other opinions and then blend it together and make a decision. Like already said, it'll turn out to be beer regardless of what you do. Almost.