Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator question

[Shady Lane Brewing]

Is there somewhere in the calculator that will tell me in grams what salt/mineral additions I need to use for a particular recipe? I use RO water, and I'd like to be more precise than throwing in the basic, boilerplate amount of additions that I use now. When I click on Mash Chemistry in one of my recipes, I see ion numbers but nothing else. I'm hoping there's a Water Calculator for Dummies feature that I've overlooked that will do the math and tell me what I need to use and how much. Is there one?

 

[Dave Y]

Is there somewhere in the calculator that will tell me in grams what salt/mineral additions I need to use for a particular recipe? I use RO water, and I'd like to be more precise than throwing in the basic, boilerplate amount of additions that I use now. When I click on Mash Chemistry in one of my recipes, I see ion numbers but nothing else. I'm hoping there's a Water Calculator for Dummies feature that I've overlooked that will do the math and tell me what I need to use and how much. Is there one?

Like this?

 

[Shady Lane Brewing]

Yes. But when I get to that Salt Additions box, it's empty. Are you punching in those gram numbers for gypsum, calcium chloride and baking soda yourself, or does it come up automatically based on your Dusseldorf target water? I put in Edinburgh water and get nothing.

 

[Sunfire96]

You have to guess and check with the BF version. Other calculators will generate the numbers for you. But BF has their reasons for not adding that feature to the calculator. You get used to it once you've done it a few times

 

[Dave Y]

Yes. But when I get to that Salt Additions box, it's empty. Are you punching in those gram numbers for gypsum, calcium chloride and baking soda yourself, or does it come up automatically based on your Dusseldorf target water? I put in Edinburgh water and get nothing.

So, I craft and save a recipe. in the recipe screen, bottom right you see this:

click the recipe hyperlink or edit. It brings up this page

scroll through and adjust the values as you need.
It populates the salt addition values based on data you enter and displays in grams as you request. there is some adjustment possible:

HTH !

 

[Minbari]

Always used "EZwater" spreadsheet. . Easy to use and you can specify your measurements. ;p

 

[Craigerrr]

One of the reasons that I don't use the software here, it is something that can be done so easily, makes no sense to me...

 

[J A]

Once you've set up a water profile that's your default and you know what water profile you prefer for your recipe, you go through and specify amounts of additives until the number match as closely as possible. It's not difficult at all and next time you brew the same or a similar recipe, you already know how many grams or (teaspoons or whatever). It's not a "For Dummies" process but the learning curve is not steep at all.

 

[Shady Lane Brewing]

Thanks, all. I'll goof around with it and see if my non-technical brain can figure it out. I was watching a brewing video about water chemistry yesterday and noticed that Brewfather has a feature that gives the exact amount of additives needed for each recipe. It made me wonder if my go-to place, Brewer's Friend, had the same.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks, all. I'll goof around with it and see if my non-technical brain can figure it out. I was watching a brewing video about water chemistry yesterday and noticed that Brewfather has a feature that gives the exact amount of additives needed for each recipe. It made me wonder if my go-to place, Brewer's Friend, had the same.

We don't but plan to add it with some notes about the caveats. Here's the biggest one. I've seen how it works in other software and why it doesn't actually work.

OK, so you put that into a calculator, and click the easy button. You come up with something wild like lots of chalk, lots of calcium sulfate, and lots of bicarbonate.

Here's the thing then. Chalk doesn't actually dissolve in water without extraneous measures. So you have to bubble c02 through the water to get the chalk to even dissolve.

ok. Did that. Now, that will give you a WAY high mash pH. So you have to add a lot of acid. Which.......neutralizes the chalk and baking soda you just added. But probably not all of it. But maybe. Oh, and the chalk that was dissolved previously precipitates out. Maybe not all of it. and keep in mind that there NEVER is an actual target for alkalinity- just what you need to get the proper mash pH.

So........what is actually the 'profile' of the water you've got? Well, no one really knows. Some of the water profiles used may not even be acheivable since chalk doesn't dissolve, and the other mineral content is not known. And that may be the water of the city itself, but not the actual brewing water used by our favorite breweries. We don't know how they treated the water, or how much acidulated malt they used to counteract the alkalinity naturally in the water.

I know it seems difficult at first using our water calc. But it's really easy after using it a few times, and seeing the changes in the results as you add, say, 5 grams of gypsum. And look at the mash pH to ensure it's where you want it.

 

[Shady Lane Brewing]

We don't but plan to add it with some notes about the caveats. Here's the biggest one. I've seen how it works in other software and why it doesn't actually work.

View attachment 33211

OK, so you put that into a calculator, and click the easy button. You come up with something wild like lots of chalk, lots of calcium sulfate, and lots of bicarbonate.

Here's the thing then. Chalk doesn't actually dissolve in water without extraneous measures. So you have to bubble c02 through the water to get the chalk to even dissolve.

ok. Did that. Now, that will give you a WAY high mash pH. So you have to add a lot of acid. Which.......neutralizes the chalk and baking soda you just added. But probably not all of it. But maybe. Oh, and the chalk that was dissolved previously precipitates out. Maybe not all of it. and keep in mind that there NEVER is an actual target for alkalinity- just what you need to get the proper mash pH.

So........what is actually the 'profile' of the water you've got? Well, no one really knows. Some of the water profiles used may not even be acheivable since chalk doesn't dissolve, and the other mineral content is not known. And that may be the water of the city itself, but not the actual brewing water used by our favorite breweries. We don't know how they treated the water, or how much acidulated malt they used to counteract the alkalinity naturally in the water.

I know it seems difficult at first using our water calc. But it's really easy after using it a few times, and seeing the changes in the results as you add, say, 5 grams of gypsum. And look at the mash pH to ensure it's where you want it.

To your point Yooper: I recently followed an Apartment Brewer recipe, including his salt additions. Not sure how he came up with those additions. But for comparison purposes, I punched in the same recipe on Brewfather and got different water numbers, as well as one fewer addition (baking soda). I'll bet I'd get different numbers from either if I ever figure out Brewer's Friend calculator. I think I'll pick one calculator and go from there. Getting a ph number in the right range seems like the main goal. In the meantime, I'm going to take a few aspirin.

 

[Yooper]

To your point Yooper: I recently followed an Apartment Brewer recipe, including his salt additions. Not sure how he came up with those additions. But for comparison purposes, I punched in the same recipe on Brewfather and got different water numbers, as well as one fewer addition (baking soda). I'll bet I'd get different numbers from either if I ever figure out Brewer's Friend calculator. I think I'll pick one calculator and go from there. Getting a ph number in the right range seems like the main goal. In the meantime, I'm going to take a few aspirin.

We can always help. There IS a learning curve. Not to toot my own horn (there is a pun in there- my maiden name was actually Toot), but if you haven't yet read the three part series on brewing water chemistry for beginners, that may help understand the whys behind the calculators.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-1/
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2017/11/19/brewing-water-basics-part-2/
https://www.brewersfriend.com/2018/02/13/brewing-water-basics-putting-it-all-together/

Most of what we add are salts. Think of salts like 'seasoning'. Just like cooking. For example, spaghetti sauce. You start with tomato sauce, which is tasty but bland. You add some garlic, some oregano, some table salt- it's a much better spaghetti sauce.

In brewing, say you're making an IPA. You can make an IPA with RO water with no additions. It'll be fine, but maybe not as great as if you add some salts. So you add some calcium chloride and some more gypsum than CaCl2, and you should have a much better beer in the end. And usually, 'less is more' in both cooking and brewing. The salts we use tend to impact mash pH to some degree. Calcium chloride and sulfate will lower the pH somewhat while baking soda will raise it, for example. That's noted in the software as you make your additions. Most beers that aren't dark will require some pH adjustment to lower the pH to optimum mash pH. You'll get a better beer if you target mash pH instead of a specific 'profile' but a few salt additions may make it great.

 

[Craigerrr]

To your point Yooper: I recently followed an Apartment Brewer recipe, including his salt additions. Not sure how he came up with those additions. But for comparison purposes, I punched in the same recipe on Brewfather and got different water numbers, as well as one fewer addition (baking soda). I'll bet I'd get different numbers from either if I ever figure out Brewer's Friend calculator. I think I'll pick one calculator and go from there. Getting a ph number in the right range seems like the main goal. In the meantime, I'm going to take a few aspirin.

Soooo many people tried to discourage me from going down the water rabbit hole when I was a relative beginner, but it ain't a deep hole at all. I found it simple to gain an understanding of, as a beginner at the time I found the vast array of malts and hops far more complex to understand their contributions and appropriate uses in the multitude of styles of beer. Still learning about malts to be honest.

The easiest way to know what is in the water you are using is to buy RO water. I'm in Canada where everything is expensive, and it isn't that expensive really. It is ultimately 99% of the finished beer, in my opinion it is an ingrediant worth paying 5 or 6 dollars extra for a batch. I don't brew to save money... Using RO water also takes care of the chlorine/chloromine issue (assuming you are on city water). If you are using city or well water, the ion profile will be a moving target over time, you would need to get a water test done from time to time to know for sure.

You can consider RO water to be zeros in all ion categories. I use calcium chloride, gypsum, Epsom salt, canning/pickling salt (don't use table salt, it is iodized), and baking soda (typically, but not exclusively in darker beers). For acid, I use acidulated malt in my grain bill, hmm, why you say... because I ALWAYS forgot to add the lactic to the mash, but you do you. Each water ingredient affects more than one ion category, so it does take some playing around to see what will get you close to where you want to be.

 

[Donoroto]

I like the ability to play with amounts, it lets me use what I have on hang and I can make educated compromises. I start with my water’s profile (according to Ward Labs and other sources), then work my way down the list, adding calcium, chloride, sulphate, and perhaps something else it needs, all while keeping sodium and, to a lesser extent, magnesium at bay. Takes well under 5 minutes.

Use it a half dozen times and it becomes habit.

Make sure you know what is already in your water.

 

[vinobrew]

Make sure you know what is already in your water.

This is where I got my start, getting a Ward water profile. I read John Palmer's book Water and it hit me, you don't know where you're going unless you know where you're at. Like others have said, the BF calculator is a good tool, you just have to work at it to make the adjustments work for the style of beer you are making. Everyone is different on how they do water adjustments. I downloaded the EZ Water yesterday after another suggestion was made to use that. I'll play with that for a bit and compare the two. In the end, water adjustments are one of the most important things you can do to improve your quality of beer.

 

[Shady Lane Brewing]

Thanks again, everyone. I use RO water and typically add a tsp of calcium chloride, gypsum and lactic acid to a five-gallon batch. Most of the beer has turned out really well. But I’m about 50 batches in and it’s started to nag at me that I should have a better idea of what I’m doing and why I’m doing it. Then I think, if it ain’t broke …

 

[Mallonee's Malt]

I've tried to use the Brewers Friend water calculators a few times. I've mostly left frustrated.
I'm fortunate to live in a city with pretty friendly brewing water. I usually just bypass the water softener when I get my brewing water.

In the times I've tried doing the adjustment in the calculators the interrelated juggling when adding ingredients is pretty hard to manage for a first timer.

Yooper's comments on why there are reservations about adding that a balancing equation to the calculator is the first I had ever seen of the difficulties.

Even the articles on water don't get into those problems. The first and third article both mention IONS, but the ingredients to achieve those ions and the challenges in using them to try to achieve the ions are not in those articles.

It's really only the last couple of paragraphs of the articles that essentially say (to me anyway) ignore the water mineral profile and optimize mash ph and then season to taste.

I really would like to see Brewers Friend do a better job of building a bridge between that first time use and the experience I see represented on this thread.

 

[Craigerrr]

I've tried to use the Brewers Friend water calculators a few times. I've mostly left frustrated.
I'm fortunate to live in a city with pretty friendly brewing water. I usually just bypass the water softener when I get my brewing water.

In the times I've tried doing the adjustment in the calculators the interrelated juggling when adding ingredients is pretty hard to manage for a first timer.

Yooper's comments on why there are reservations about adding that a balancing equation to the calculator is the first I had ever seen of the difficulties.

Even the articles on water don't get into those problems. The first and third article both mention IONS, but the ingredients to achieve those ions and the challenges in using them to try to achieve the ions are not in those articles.

It's really only the last couple of paragraphs of the articles that essentially say (to me anyway) ignore the water mineral profile and optimize mash ph and then season to taste.

I really would like to see Brewers Friend do a better job of building a bridge between that first time use and the experience I see represented on this thread.

Here, here
There should be no more concern over the brewer selecting the appropriate "salts" then there is to selecting the appropriate malts, hops, or yeast. Just another section of ingredients. Why it is not just included as a section in the recipe like everything else has dumbfounded me for years

Like this for instance...

 

[Donoroto]

This is where I got my start, getting a Ward water profile. I read John Palmer's book Water and it hit me, you don't know where you're going unless you know where you're at. Like others have said, the BF calculator is a good tool, you just have to work at it to make the adjustments work for the style of beer you are making. Everyone is different on how they do water adjustments. I downloaded the EZ Water yesterday after another suggestion was made to use that. I'll play with that for a bit and compare the two. In the end, water adjustments are one of the most important things you can do to improve your quality of beer.

Somewhere on this site is a list of several hundred or maybe 1000 water profiles that people have entered into a database of sorts. You find one that matches your water source, assuming it’s something municipal or commercial, and that should be pretty close to start with. If someone looks up Fulton County Georgia water, they’ll find my ward labs report numbers, along with someone else’s who got nearly the same numbers some years in the past. I need to go look for it, but I know it’s there somewhere.

 

[Mallonee's Malt]

I have a really good water profile from my municipal supply. About the only thing that isn't clear with respect to how the calculator works is the "alkalinity" measurement - and I think I have that figured out successfully.

I have added my city to those water profiles. That part makes perfect sense.

Where I get frustrated is when I try to take my city water or even distilled water and transform it to a brewing profile.

The instructions are basically "fiddle with it until it works".

From other sources I've seen some salt ratios to achieve a particular profile from distilled water. I don't understand why the "calculator" can't do this - especially from such a widely known standard as distilled water.

If the salts don't provide a repeatable value (chalk doesn't dissolve?) then are there other additives that do? Is there a process to follow like adding salts to boiling the water? It just seems weird to have a "calculator" that gives the illusion of a repeatable result and the accompanying article that treats it all as art. I'm missing the connection somewhere.