Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator question

[Donoroto]

I have a really good water profile from my municipal supply. About the only thing that isn't clear with respect to how the calculator works is the "alkalinity" measurement - and I think I have that figured out successfully.

I have added my city to those water profiles. That part makes perfect sense.

Where I get frustrated is when I try to take my city water or even distilled water and transform it to a brewing profile.

The instructions are basically "fiddle with it until it works".

From other sources I've seen some salt ratios to achieve a particular profile from distilled water. I don't understand why the "calculator" can't do this - especially from such a widely known standard as distilled water.

If the salts don't provide a repeatable value (chalk doesn't dissolve?) then are there other additives that do? Is there a process to follow like adding salts to boiling the water? It just seems weird to have a "calculator" that gives the illusion of a repeatable result and the accompanying article that treats it all as art. I'm missing the connection somewhere.

Automation might also not take into account that I want more magnesium and less sodium.

I have what might be called a fiddling process.

I start with the first salt at top, calcium sulphate, CaSO4, gypsum). I increase the amount until I hit my calcium number. Then i go to the second salt, magnesium sulfate (MgSO4, Epsom salt) and add that until I hit my sulphate number. I skip table salt (NaCl) for now, then add calcium chloride (CaCl) until I hit my Chloride number (if needed). I now might have too much Calcium, so I back off gypsum and increase the epsom until things balance again.

This rarely results in exactly the numbers I’m looking for, so then I can tweak calcium, chloride, and sulfate with the other salts. It is a give and take, cut and try kind of thing, but it doesn’t take long until you get a good feel for what a gram of this or that will do to the numbers.

I never use chalk, nor magnesium chloride. I do use NaCl for chloride. I might increase pH with baking soda or even (food-grade) lye, and lower it with lactic acid or acidulated malt.

Also, keep in mind that close enough is close enough. If I’m within 10 or so of a target, that’s usually close enough. I also ignore HCO, as it rarely cooperates with me. I use grams for salts, and within a half gram is close enough. Tenths of a gram is a fool’s errand.

Give it a try.

 

[J A]

Here, here
There should be no more concern over the brewer selecting the appropriate "salts" then there is to selecting the appropriate malts, hops, or yeast. Just another section of ingredients. Why it is not just included as a section in the recipe like everything else has dumbfounded me for years

It already is included in the recipe calculator...Choose and add Gypsum or CaCl, for instance, from the "Other Ingredients" category and notice the changes in Mash pH and Target Ion levels in the water chemistry section. You don't even have to go to the water calculator link if you don't want to.

 

[Yooper]

I have a really good water profile from my municipal supply. About the only thing that isn't clear with respect to how the calculator works is the "alkalinity" measurement - and I think I have that figured out successfully.

I have added my city to those water profiles. That part makes perfect sense.

Where I get frustrated is when I try to take my city water or even distilled water and transform it to a brewing profile.

The instructions are basically "fiddle with it until it works".

From other sources I've seen some salt ratios to achieve a particular profile from distilled water. I don't understand why the "calculator" can't do this - especially from such a widely known standard as distilled water.

If the salts don't provide a repeatable value (chalk doesn't dissolve?) then are there other additives that do? Is there a process to follow like adding salts to boiling the water? It just seems weird to have a "calculator" that gives the illusion of a repeatable result and the accompanying article that treats it all as art. I'm missing the connection somewhere.

The calculator does warn that chalk isn't very soluble. And the issue with the automation type is that it has you add salts to hit a "profile" and then add acid to remove the alkalinity that you just added, so it actually isn't the profile.

Here's a common example. You are making an English beer, and decide on Burton-on-Trent water:
CA=295; Mg=45; Na=55; SO4=725; Cl=25 and HCO3=300

The automation type may have you add a lot of chalk to get such a high HCO3 and calcium, and a boatload of gypsum. In addition, that magnesium is really too high also, but it would have you add some magnesium sulfate. and you'd need baking soda to get the sodium level up. Well, then you have to add acid to counteract that 300 ppm HCO3, so it will negate those additions. BUT the software isn't 'smart' enough to know that- it is programmed so that you add XXX grams of chalk, XXX grams of gypsum, and then acid because you added baking soda and chalk, and you need that to precipitate out so your mash pH is acceptable.

So once you add those things- you no longer have that profile because of the issues with adding both alkalinity AND acid to counteract the alkalinity.

I hope that makes sense. It's not rocket science, but it does take some rudimentary knowledge of what those salts do and don't do, and why Burton-on-Trent salts (they sell those!) and that water profile don't make any sense at all if you want to brew a good beer. I understand the frustratation and the feeling of 'fiddle with it until it works', but that passes very quickly once you get the hang of it. Using an automated software for water targets, if you're adding alkalinity and then acid, that right there should show you that the 'easy button' is flawed.