Dry Hopping question for Hazy IPA

[Bigbre04]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1416712/double-juicy-ipa-new-

Hey guys,

I am trying out a different Dry Hop schedule for this batch! Looking to do some mid fermentation hops. I looked at some recipes on here and it looks like people generally shoot for a 7 and 3 days.

I am thinking that i need to look at my previous batches with the Voss and grab a general Plato that will finish out at around 7 days. So it looks like for this OG i would need to be around the 3rd to 4th day of fermentation. BUT if i wait later, it shouldn't hurt as long as it sees active fermentation?

What would yall consider the max for the mid fermentation DH day wise? I would assume that 10 days would be the very outside edge for it, but I have never done a mid ferment DH.

Also I thought that I had 18#s of Flaked Oats, but it turns out that I only have 8#s Got todo a big grain order soon!

Probably brewing this on Wednesday of this week.

 

[Minbari]

From my own experience. If you want hop aroma, 2-3 days max right at the end and you HAVE to keep oxygen out or it will be lifeless and oxidized in a week

 

[Donoroto]

By definition, the max is once FG is reached. I usually figure on day 3 or 4, depending on the yeast. 10 is exceptionally late in my book.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Sounds like your going for a Double Dry hopped Juicy.

I wouldn't boil any of them cryo hops I'd push them in with the Whirlpooled hops they will still contribute plenty of bitterness there and less of the aromas will be volatized off from the boil then the WP.

Personally what I'd do is 1st dryhop high krausen (day 1 24hrs in) and second dry hop as the fermentation is almost finished ( day 3/4) and time this dry hop with spunding that end of fermentation that way them flavours and aromas are trapped into the beer.

It would be cool on your scale to try out a hopback and transfer over into the fermenter through the hopback with some of these WP hops...

 

[Box of Rocks]

Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't done many, but...
I also lean toward the "sooner rather than later" dry hopping schedule.
First dry hop after one day, and can be added by opening fermenter. Second dry hop around day three, running through.a purged tank if possible. Keep oxygen out.
Check on your water calc depending on preference (chloride about double the sulfate level might be typical?).

 

[Bigbre04]

From my own experience. If you want hop aroma, 2-3 days max right at the end and you HAVE to keep oxygen out or it will be lifeless and oxidized in a week

I generally don't have too many issues with oxygen pickup. I open the port on top and add positive pressure through the CIP arm while slowly adding the hops.

I would love to have a small vessel to use a closed hop system(blanking on the name of it), but I currently dont have one at this point. maybe eventually i can talk the boss man into welding me up one out of an old keg, but that is low on the priority list.

 

[Bigbre04]

By definition, the max is once FG is reached. I usually figure on day 3 or 4, depending on the yeast. 10 is exceptionally late in my book.

No no I meant how long to leave the hops in the beer(before keggin/racking it off). I assume that it is different from a normal dryhop as 7 days post fermentation would end up with a little too much green flavor for my taste. Im usually in the 3-5 day range post fermentation.

First pitches of Voss generally kick serious ass, its not unusual for it drop 7P in 12 hours and be down in the 3s on day 4(fermenting at around 100-102F). The starting P being so high it will probably take a few more days to reach terminal, but thats not a biggy. I am not tight on that draft line yet(still have 2 kegs left)

 

[Bigbre04]

Sounds like your going for a Double Dry hopped Juicy.

I wouldn't boil any of them cryo hops I'd push them in with the Whirlpooled hops they will still contribute plenty of bitterness there and less of the aromas will be volatized off from the boil then the WP.

Personally what I'd do is 1st dryhop high krausen (day 1 24hrs in) and second dry hop as the fermentation is almost finished ( day 3/4) and time this dry hop with spunding that end of fermentation that way them flavours and aromas are trapped into the beer.

It would be cool on your scale to try out a hopback and transfer over into the fermenter through the hopback with some of these WP hops...

I could move them closer to the end maybe 5 min instead of 10, but I prefer a little more bitterness in the final product since it is high ABV and will probably finish north of 4P so it will have some sweetness to balance the slightly higher bitterness.

Do you generally just go off time or a target gravity? I might need to push this brew off until monday so that i have a full week of samples to keep track of it. OR i could just say fuck it and brew on thursday and pitch hops friday afternoon. decisions.

I did one when we first opened that was exclusively WP hopped and it was good but i missed the bitterness.

Man i wish i had spunding valves, but those suckers are $300 a pop. Eventually they will be mine, but I have higher priorities at the moment like more tanks, new brewhouse, HLT, more draftlines, more cooler space, etc.

I worked on a traditional hopback back in the day at my first beer job. Mixed feelings about shoveling out bushels of wet whole leaf hops lol. Fond??? memories???

 

[Bigbre04]

Take this with a grain of salt since I haven't done many, but...
I also lean toward the "sooner rather than later" dry hopping schedule.
First dry hop after one day, and can be added by opening fermenter. Second dry hop around day three, running through.a purged tank if possible. Keep oxygen out.
Check on your water calc depending on preference (chloride about double the sulfate level might be typical?).

I will def check on the water thing. I generally just roll with the same for all beers but these big IPAs are a different animal. I would love to have a hop tank, but at the moment i dont have one. Maybe eventually.

 

[Donoroto]

No no I meant how long to leave the hops in the beer(before keggin/racking it off). I assume that it is different from a normal dryhop as 7 days post fermentation would end up with a little too much green flavor for my taste. Im usually in the 3-5 day range post fermentation.

First pitches of Voss generally kick serious ass, its not unusual for it drop 7P in 12 hours and be down in the 3s on day 4(fermenting at around 100-102F). The starting P being so high it will probably take a few more days to reach terminal, but thats not a biggy. I am not tight on that draft line yet(still have 2 kegs left)

Ah. Three or four days is my method. That handles the D rest as well.

Do note that I am barely an amateur here. My opinion and a dollar gets you a burger at McD's. And if they knew you'd listened to me, they'd charge you $1.79.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I could move them closer to the end maybe 5 min instead of 10, but I prefer a little more bitterness in the final product since it is high ABV and will probably finish north of 4P so it will have some sweetness to balance the slightly higher bitterness.

Do you generally just go off time or a target gravity? I might need to push this brew off until monday so that i have a full week of samples to keep track of it. OR i could just say fuck it and brew on thursday and pitch hops friday afternoon. decisions.

I did one when we first opened that was exclusively WP hopped and it was good but i missed the bitterness.

Man i wish i had spunding valves, but those suckers are $300 a pop. Eventually they will be mine, but I have higher priorities at the moment like more tanks, new brewhouse, HLT, more draftlines, more cooler space, etc.

I worked on a traditional hopback back in the day at my first beer job. Mixed feelings about shoveling out bushels of wet whole leaf hops lol. Fond??? memories???

Usually these cryo hops have outstandingly high Alpha Acids packed into them anyhow but hey nothing worse then a beer comming across too sweet.

Just not what I'd do man it would be all WP and Dry hop on a Hazy Jane .

I just time my dry hops going by fermentation action.

I'm usually adding one dry hop rarely two to a beer so I'll time that dry hop when I see activity start to fall off primary fermentation. I feel that way I'm getting the best from both worlds then I'll spund the next day to allow any o2 to be blown off and or consumed by the active fermentation.

You know spunding for me is just not allowing co2 to release from the fermenter anymore - it helps I ferment in a keg though so I know it ain't gunna go boom.

I know some of these commercial fermenters can't take too much pressure so yeah dialing in your spund pressure is critical.

Man I've gone 9months on a 2.5kg co2 bottle you save so much in co2 by allowing the beers to naturally partially carb before pushing over to keg.
Oh and I push all my beers over with c02 as well so I'm blown away with that...

I'll leave you with another reference point Scott Janish the brains behind Dry hopping have a dig into this if you havnt already
http://scottjanish.com/dry-hop-best...s-a-guide-for-process-and-recipe-development/

 

[Box of Rocks]

Here are some tips condensed from Scott's great article:

• Extraction of hop compounds during dry hopping can happen relatively quickly, generally 1–3 days.
• Agitate dry hops (i.e., burping or recirculating w CO2) can reduce extraction time and improve overall extraction efficiency
• Minimize oxygen introduction during dry hopping by extensive purging and bubbling CO2 up from bottom
• Dry hopping can lead to refermentation, resulting in over-carbonation and off-flavors from “hop creep”
  
  Dry hopping at cool temperatures and for short durations can minimize hop creep​

Dry hopping can increase the final pH of the beer, which can increase bitterness

• Dry hop with products with vegetal material removed (like LupomaxTM or Cryo Hops®)
• Consider adding additional acid (like phosphoric acid) to the kettle (targeting 4.8–4.9 post-boil pH) when brewing higher alcohol and highly dry hopped DIPAs to counter dry hop pH rise for better drinkability.
• Experiment with post-fermentation acid additions
  • fermentation acid adjustment to 4.2–4.4 pH can help

Dry hopping can harm foam retention
Shorter dry hop durations and temperatures helped to maintain beer foam

• Duration of dry hopping for no longer than 3 days, removing spent dry hops from the cone before doing additional dry hop charges
• Dry hop at cool temperatures, 50–58°F (10–14°C), to improve foam and to reduce excessive hydrocarbon extraction, polyphenols, and hop creep.

Match heavy dry hopping rates with whirlpool hopping at a rate of 1.5–2.5 pounds per barrel at 180°F (82°C) for better bittering balance and increased hop-derived flavor complexity.

• For increased hop-saturated flavor use hops high in total survivable compounds in the whirlpool, such as Idaho 7TM, Mosaic®, Bravo, Citra®, Millennium, Mount Hood, Ekuanot®, and Simcoe®

• Minimize the oxygen exposure to the beer when dry hoping by purging the dry hops with CO2 before dropping them into the fermentor. Likewise, adding them to a closed, purged tank, such as with a hop doser, will prevent eruptions and beer showers.

• Agitate dry hops at least once a day to increase extraction efficiency and reduce the extraction time. Consider agitating high alpha-acid hop varieties and low-ABV beers multiple times a day to help with extraction due to the nonpolar nature of hop oils.
• • Duration of dry hopping for no longer than 3 days, re- moving spent dry hops from the cone before doing addi- tional dry hop charges.
  • Agitate dry hops with 60 s bursts of ~30 PSI from the bottom of the cone while keeping the tank under 8–15 PSI of pressure.
  • Consider dry hopping mid-fermentation to soften or reduce strong resin and/or green-tasting hydrocarbons from hop varieties that have that potential (like SabroTM) that could otherwise dominate the palate.

 

[Bigbre04]

Ah. Three or four days is my method. That handles the D rest as well.

Do note that I am barely an amateur here. My opinion and a dollar gets you a burger at McD's. And if they knew you'd listened to me, they'd charge you $1.79.

I made the same beers the same ways for years, very little variation. Im now making different beers every week so its a different experience completely. Im working towards constantly improving my product given the shit brew system that i have to work with.

I appreciate all feedback man, Im doing my best to make better beer each time that i brew. Plus my scale(tiny for production, huge or homebrew) puts me in a very odd spot. I get to play around and do different stuff way more then a bigger brewery could.

 

[Bigbre04]

Usually these cryo hops have outstandingly high Alpha Acids packed into them anyhow but hey nothing worse then a beer comming across too sweet.

Just not what I'd do man it would be all WP and Dry hop on a Hazy Jane .

I just time my dry hops going by fermentation action.

I'm usually adding one dry hop rarely two to a beer so I'll time that dry hop when I see activity start to fall off primary fermentation. I feel that way I'm getting the best from both worlds then I'll spund the next day to allow any o2 to be blown off and or consumed by the active fermentation.

You know spunding for me is just not allowing co2 to release from the fermenter anymore - it helps I ferment in a keg though so I know it ain't gunna go boom.

I know some of these commercial fermenters can't take too much pressure so yeah dialing in your spund pressure is critical.

Man I've gone 9months on a 2.5kg co2 bottle you save so much in co2 by allowing the beers to naturally partially carb before pushing over to keg.
Oh and I push all my beers over with c02 as well so I'm blown away with that...

I'll leave you with another reference point Scott Janish the brains behind Dry hopping have a dig into this if you havnt already
http://scottjanish.com/dry-hop-best...s-a-guide-for-process-and-recipe-development/

i generally toss about half the total weight of cryo compared to the same T90 hop. They def are potent. I use them because I cant really afford much loss of volume since im already pushing the brewhouse to the max and i sometimes dont get all of my kegs full.

Spunding is not something that i have ever done before, but i am very interested in it for my non-dryhopped beers. It is less about the CO2 costs, more about the beer quality. We have a micro bulk CO2 tank, so our costs are very very low by volume. Honestly i would like to try it on my lagers maybe i can justify getting one and moving it around tank to tank...

Our fermenters are rated up to 30psi(failure) they can probably handle more, but they can develop stress cracks and pop welds. I generally carbonate at around 15 psi. I have heard of tanks blowing though, that sounds not fun.

More common actually is Implosion during CIP. Generally when it happens when the Cellarman doesnt have proper venting on the tank(door open, ports open, blow off open) and either the glycol gets kicked on by accident or they flush it with Cold water.

For sure, on the hop timing. Personally i prefer a touch of bitterness, just a hint(and maybe i need to adjust the recipe now that Im thinking on the Red IPA(fairly bitter) that i did, I am gonna look at that this morning). Brew got pushed off until next week since the I dont need the beer.

The major disadvantage of dryhopping during fermentation is that i generally like to collect my yeasties so that i can repitch them into the next batch. At my previous breweries we generally dryhopped post fermentation since we were always trying to reuse the yeast. My yeast pitch costs about $100 so if i able to split that between several batches it helps with efficiency and costs.

I need to get onto the podcast while driving train! That is a super interesting article! Yall rock!

Sorry about the long responses!

 

[Bigbre04]

Box of Rocks, post: 189074, member: 44980"]Here are some tips condensed from Scott's great article:

• Extraction of hop compounds during dry hopping can happen relatively quickly, generally 1–3 days.
• Agitate dry hops (i.e., burping or recirculating w CO2) can reduce extraction time and improve overall extraction efficiency
• Minimize oxygen introduction during dry hopping by extensive purging and bubbling CO2 up from bottom
• Dry hopping can lead to refermentation, resulting in over-carbonation and off-flavors from “hop creep”
  
  Dry hopping at cool temperatures and for short durations can minimize hop creep​

I generally shoot for sub 5 days, based on flavor. I need to get more diligent about mixing with CO2. I welcome refermentation lol, I have been fighting with low attenuation! But as far as refermentation in the final packaging everything is placed in kegs and then moved directly into the cooler(38F). If i was canning or sending kegs our of my personal control i would need to address this as well as my attenuation/fruit pitching practices.

Dry hopping can increase the final pH of the beer, which can increase bitterness

• Dry hop with products with vegetal material removed (like LupomaxTM or Cryo Hops®)
• Consider adding additional acid (like phosphoric acid) to the kettle (targeting 4.8–4.9 post-boil pH) when brewing higher alcohol and highly dry hopped DIPAs to counter dry hop pH rise for better drinkability.
• Experiment with post-fermentation acid additions
  • fermentation acid adjustment to 4.2–4.4 pH can help

I need to spend more time befriending my pH Meter... I will dig into this for sure.

Dry hopping can harm foam retention
Shorter dry hop durations and temperatures helped to maintain beer foam

• Duration of dry hopping for no longer than 3 days, removing spent dry hops from the cone before doing additional dry hop charges
• Dry hop at cool temperatures, 50–58°F (10–14°C), to improve foam and to reduce excessive hydrocarbon extraction, polyphenols, and hop creep.

Does this justify my excessive use of Dextrin malts? Maybe??? lol.
​

Match heavy dry hopping rates with whirlpool hopping at a rate of 1.5–2.5 pounds per barrel at 180°F (82°C) for better bittering balance and increased hop-derived flavor complexity.

I will adjust my temp down on the wp hop additions. I was doing it at 185 but if 180 is more better then 180 it is! My previous brewery we dropped the WP down to 170 for WP DH.

• For increased hop-saturated flavor use hops high in total survivable compounds in the whirlpool, such as Idaho 7TM, Mosaic®, Bravo, Citra®, Millennium, Mount Hood, Ekuanot®, and Simcoe® Always(when i have them on hand!)

• Minimize the oxygen exposure to the beer when dry hoping by purging the dry hops with CO2 before dropping them into the fermentor. Likewise, adding them to a closed, purged tank, such as with a hop doser, will prevent eruptions and beer showers.

Huh, I didnt think about that. maybe i need to get a different type of bucket to measure them out that would be better for purging. Currently i just use the 1 gal home depot mixing buckets. I can get some taller skinnier buckets and purge with CO2 and then use cling film to close it until i actually get the tank open...interesting.

• Agitate dry hops at least once a day to increase extraction efficiency and reduce the extraction time. Consider agitating high alpha-acid hop varieties and low-ABV beers multiple times a day to help with extraction due to the nonpolar nature of hop oils.
• • Duration of dry hopping for no longer than 3 days, re- moving spent dry hops from the cone before doing addi- tional dry hop charges.
  • Agitate dry hops with 60 s bursts of ~30 PSI from the bottom of the cone while keeping the tank under 8–15 PSI of pressure.
  • Consider dry hopping mid-fermentation to soften or reduce strong resin and/or green-tasting hydrocarbons from hop varieties that have that potential (like SabroTM) that could otherwise dominate the palate.

I generally dont dump the cone because im already so tight on volumes. instead I do my best to be packaging the beer the day of carbing or atleast the next day. This is why im pushing this brew off until next week.

Dude! do you work for Spark Notes?!?!

Thanks a ton for the synopsis! Im gonna go through the full article. I found a study that was done by Rock Bottom Group back in the day that was really interesting about mashing. I will try to find it again and post it for yall.

 

[Bigbre04]

So I rearranged the hops and added some more phosphoric acid to drop the initial ph down to 5.25.

reduced and moved the 10 mins hops to 5 mins.
added a flameout(0min) hop addition.
reduced the 180 wp additions total weights down a little and pulled some hops from the dryhop to try and balance things a little more between the DHs and the hot additions.

lemme know what yall think

 

[GFHomebrew]

So I rearranged the hops and added some more phosphoric acid to drop the initial ph down to 5.25.

reduced and moved the 10 mins hops to 5 mins.
added a flameout(0min) hop addition.
reduced the 180 wp additions total weights down a little and pulled some hops from the dryhop to try and balance things a little more between the DHs and the hot additions.

lemme know what yall think

Looking good man I hope it comes across ballanced and bursting with hop flavour and aroma.
I'm sure it will with a bit of o2 mitigation and such.

Pity you can't dump the cone on day 3 before the first dryhop I read your tight volume constraints...

I culture my yeast prior to pitching and keep a portion for next batch in a jar this would be super difficult though on the large scale

 

[Box of Rocks]

Recipe is looking good.
Could you make extra wort, and set aside some to replace what is lost by hop absorption? I have the same issue on a smaller scale, not having a full keg after so much work, and am considering splitting into two fermenters and then combining (one that gets the whirlpool but doesn't get dry hopped).. I know, not an elegant solution since you need another fermenter, even if it's smaller. Also pushes/surpasses my limit on the kettle side. Another approach might be to shoot for higher ABV and water down later (have no idea how this would blend for taste).
Doing the summary is helpful for me - I will be incorporating many of these techniques in my next NEIPS. Never considered a bunch of these techniques, like the aggressive burping with CO2.
You will have to let us know how it turns out! Awesome / okay / needs lots more work? Guess the real test is whether folks consume it fast or not.

 

[Bigbre04]

Looking good man I hope it comes across ballanced and bursting with hop flavour and aroma.
I'm sure it will with a bit of o2 mitigation and such.

Pity you can't dump the cone on day 3 before the first dryhop I read your tight volume constraints...

I culture my yeast prior to pitching and keep a portion for next batch in a jar this would be super difficult though on the large scale

I generally save my yeast in 1.5L naglene bottles that i burn in hot liquor. I usually pull 3-4 bottles and seal them up and keep them in the cooler. The milky white bottles from Nalgene are basically lab bottles and handle the heat really well. I dont think you can autoclave them but they can easily handle boiling water(years of boyscouts in cold weather you toss a nalgene full of hot water into your sleeping bag wrapped in a shirt or a towel, added bonus you have water when you are inevitably thirsty in the middle of the night!) Old school BPA-full nalgenes!

 

[Bigbre04]

Recipe is looking good.
Could you make extra wort, and set aside some to replace what is lost by hop absorption? I have the same issue on a smaller scale, not having a full keg after so much work, and am considering splitting into two fermenters and then combining (one that gets the whirlpool but doesn't get dry hopped).. I know, not an elegant solution since you need another fermenter, even if it's smaller. Also pushes/surpasses my limit on the kettle side. Another approach might be to shoot for higher ABV and water down later (have no idea how this would blend for taste).
Doing the summary is helpful for me - I will be incorporating many of these techniques in my next NEIPS. Never considered a bunch of these techniques, like the aggressive burping with CO2.
You will have to let us know how it turns out! Awesome / okay / needs lots more work? Guess the real test is whether folks consume it fast or not.

The hop absorption is why I use as many cryo hops as i can. they have minimal absorption, and i use them at about half the volume of normal t90s.

wort wise, i cant really do that as i only have 4 Unis right now. plus the time involved doesnt justify the effort. i would be better off brewing a single and then another batch the next day into the same tank. it would yeild me 8 kegs.

im hoping to brew it soon, but i just dont really need the beer right now as we are getting into our slow season. plus our locals dont really drink big ipas so the previous batch is still hanging around.