Accurate Description Controversy: Hefeweizen Phenols are NOT Clove

[Bigbre04]

Not phenolic. But the ‘clove’ is subtle at its strongest, as @Bigbre04 notes. My Hefe has had some in some batches.

Similarly, we get Banana, but sniff a banana and sniff my beer, they are in the same family but not the same. But for clove, ‘spicy’ is too broad a term, so it is called clove or white pepper.

its not real banana to me it is very much banana flavored runts or general fake banana flavoring.

i think that it is mostly people reaching for descriptors to describe very vague scents. as has been stated above.

atleast we are not on the tobacco and old leather the way wine tasting notes get.

 

[Brew Cat]

you people

 

[Brew Cat]

I love a good beer argument
I wish I had a heffe on tap right now
to drink while I follow along

 

[Donoroto]

I'm pretty sure Bubblegum is now considered a 'flaw'. I believe it is a fermentation problem if I recall. I've never detected it in a true German commercial example.

It is a fault.

 

[Yooper]

damn its like we are starting to talk about wine tasting notes! lol! i cant wait for someone to describe a beer as smelling like old leather books and deep shoe polish. fucking wine.

I read a review of a beer (can't remember now which beer it was) as having a flavor of "mossy river rocks".

I haven't tasted all that many mossy river rocks, to be fair. But while a pile of pretentious BS.


I DO tend to get a clove-like phenol from some beers. Is it clove exactly? No, one time it leaned far more toward coriander seeds. But describing phenols in simple English can be helpful in describing. I mean, I can write in my judge paper that "perceptible 4 VG (4-vinyl guaiacol) in both aroma and flavor" but a person reading that may not know what I am describing. I can say "perceptible clove-like in both aroma and flavor" and the reader understands.

There are so many different phenols that "phenolic" won't cover it. Sure, chlorophenol is easy, and maybe medicinal can cover one. But, then, what exactly IS medicinal? Aspirin? Cough Syrup? Night Quil? What about the famous band-aid flavor? That's easy. I guess that's why I'm ok with "clove", "medicinal", etc are ok with me. Lack of a better description I guess!

 

[Sandy Feet]

Yeah...I think of bubblegum as a sort of generic fake fruit flavor. I seldom really like the hefeweizens offered by local craft breweries, though I order them occasionally. When I find a German hefe on tap, I remember why I like the style.

I went to a market with a bunch of food stalls and a brewery in London last week. The brewery did German beers, and they made a very banana forward Hefe that was just fucking good. I get the love for the style even more now.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

its not real banana to me it is very much banana flavored runts or general fake banana flavoring.

i think that it is mostly people reaching for descriptors to describe very vague scents. as has been stated above.

atleast we are not on the tobacco and old leather the way wine tasting notes get.

I get you on the Runts. It indeed can present as fake. (because Isoamyl Acetate IS the flavor of a banana—though concentration matters) My fake Banana reference is Nestlē Banana Quick. For sure, I've never tasted a Hefe that fake, but a few make me reminisce as if I was also eating Banana Nut Bread while drinking it...(and yes, I have a Dunkelweizen recipe for a liquid version of Banana Nut Bread—WAY better than that to be unamed commercial version out there about 15–20+ years ago)

Indeed, with respect to Hefe, we aren't discussing Tobacco and Old Leather. I'm going to start that thread a few months from now when I eventually rebrew my own interpretations of 'Old Ale' and 'Cigar Malt Stout'. Indeed, I already have hops-in-freezer that have the Tobacco and Leather descriptors—HA!

 

[J A]

I went to a market with a bunch of food stalls and a brewery in London last week. The brewery did German beers, and they made a very banana forward Hefe that was just fucking good. I get the love for the style even more now.

Yeah...I lived in Chicago through the 80s and I still visit there relatively often. For some reason, there's always been a good German Hefe on tap at a lot of places -much more common than other places I've been. I can't remember if Hacker-Pschorr or Paulaner is the one that's more common but either is a go-to.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Yeah...I lived in Chicago through the 80s and I still visit there relatively often. For some reason, there's always been a good German Hefe on tap at a lot of places -much more common than other places I've been. I can't remember if Hacker-Pschorr or Paulaner is the one that's more common but either is a go-to.

That is indeed a close enough call to require more Science™, tasting each side-by-side!

I'll shall endeavour to acquire both and report back. (I've had both, but don't think I've ever done a tête-a-tête—ha!)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I read a review of a beer (can't remember now which beer it was) as having a flavor of "mossy river rocks".

I haven't tasted all that many mossy river rocks, to be fair. But while a pile of pretentious BS.


I DO tend to get a clove-like phenol from some beers. Is it clove exactly? No, one time it leaned far more toward coriander seeds. But describing phenols in simple English can be helpful in describing. I mean, I can write in my judge paper that "perceptible 4 VG (4-vinyl guaiacol) in both aroma and flavor" but a person reading that may not know what I am describing. I can say "perceptible clove-like in both aroma and flavor" and the reader understands.

There are so many different phenols that "phenolic" won't cover it. Sure, chlorophenol is easy, and maybe medicinal can cover one. But, then, what exactly IS medicinal? Aspirin? Cough Syrup? Night Quil? What about the famous band-aid flavor? That's easy. I guess that's why I'm ok with "clove", "medicinal", etc are ok with me. Lack of a better description I guess!

But that is my entire point.

The descriptive reference, the one that isn't technical, the one that attempts to give others an 'everyday' comparison, just doesn't match reality. (as far as I can tell. Please, please someone, please provide an example of 'Cloves' that even remotely resembles the 'spice' of a Hefe, I beg of you!)

I'm not sure why it exists in the first place, and I'm even more flummoxed that folks keep confounding the point while they prove it.

If you tell me you smell or taste CLOVES in my beer, that is very specific. And if actual Cloves aren't there, but you used that word anyway, you did no one any favors. This is my point. We should be accurate in our references. Close might be good enough in nuanced cases, but 'out in someone ELSE's left field' is right out.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

I went to a market with a bunch of food stalls and a brewery in London last week. The brewery did German beers, and they made a very banana forward Hefe that was just fucking good. I get the love for the style even more now.

A well executed Hefe is nectar of the Heavenly Realms, no doubt. And if the Heavenly Realms dispute this bona fide fact, they better bring copious volumes of a better style as their winning argument. (I'll drink it to excess of course; hint to those Heavenly Realms: I can think of several candidate styles if you want to give it a go—I can do samples, and argue about and for them, for all eternity!)

 

[J A]

That is indeed a close enough call to require more Science™, tasting each side-by-side!

I'll shall endeavour to acquire both and report back. (I've had both, but don't think I've ever done a tête-a-tête—ha!)

That's a theme for a beer club meet-up!! Head to Head Hefe night!!!

 

[Donoroto]

Might sound odd, but some taste ‘clove’ where others taste ‘bread yeast’.

Banana is another topic: artificial banana is more like the bananas of 75 years ago than a modern Cavendish. Sadly those examples from a century past are now extinct, and Cavendishes are declining rapidly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35131751

 

[Sandy Feet]

Once someone described the spicy clove thing, and I tasted it, I understood. Is it actually clove? Who knows? But, I understand. I purposely made a clovey Hefe as an experiment. I like it for what I was trying to do. I would go more towards the banana on the next one though.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Might sound odd, but some taste ‘clove’ where others taste ‘bread yeast’.

Banana is another topic: artificial banana is more like the bananas of 75 years ago than a modern Cavendish. Sadly those examples from a century past are now extinct, and Cavendishes are declining rapidly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-35131751

Interesting, thanks for the link!

(and very perplexing on the yeast v. clove thing. I can't even imagine that is a proper comparison.)

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Once someone described the spicy clove thing, and I tasted it, I understood. Is it actually clove? Who knows? But, I understand. I purposely made a clovey Hefe as an experiment. I like it for what I was trying to do. I would go more towards the banana on the next one though.

I have a diatribe on here about increasing Banana. Check it out. Interesting stuff. And yes, plenty of empirical experience is included. The absolute greatest contributing factor (which seems to apply to any and all expressive yeasts and their esters) is the fermenter geometry part. In short, make sure the diameter of the top of the wort in the fermenter is more than the height. (shallower rather than taller) That reduces osmotic pressure on the yeasties and allows them to be expressive and do their thing. A good rule of thumb is to use the BSG 7.5+ gallon buckets. For a 5.5gal to fermenter volume, the dimensions will work. (and leave plenty of headspace for happy yeast!)

Your aim is true.

The Banana will die before the spicy phenols, whatever they might be called.

Thus a strong Banana start will result in a longer lasting Hefe overall.

If you shoot for balance out of the gate a la Weihenstephaner, it will lack all Banana in a couple-three weeks. This is from multiple-batch experience.

Don't ask me how a brewery that goes back to 1040 A.D. does it otherwise. Ask them. They are a brewing school too!