Accurate Description Controversy: Hefeweizen Phenols are NOT Clove

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Look, I get this style has been made for well over 500 years. I'm not arguing with German brewers. But I can't for the life of me figure out how they think that the phenols in this style is anything like Cloves. Are Cloves in Europe different than in the U.S.?

Grab some Cloves in your spice cabinet or buy some and take a giant whiff.

That is decidedly NOT what a Hefe smells or tastes like.

My closest reference experience instead would be White Pepper. (though admittedly, likely still not accurate)

Describing beers accurately is important when BJCP judging, and if taking a test, yeah, I'll use "clove" but that doesn't mean I detect it as such. I'm just going to write that so as not to get dinged on points.

And just to satisfy my curiosity, I recently had some friends do that test while we were drinking a line-up of Hefe. They both agreed, Hefeweizen does NOT contain Clove. (yes, well known German brands were included)

Thoughts, arguments, interesting historical info?

 

[Brew Cat]

I agree and I had this discussion with my coffee roaster about tasting notes and it was explained that yes its not exactly what you taste or smell but a descriptor.
like you said you don't taste clove but you know the taste and smell their describing. Everyone smells and tastes differently. Maybe the first caveman thought his beer tasted like cloves

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Maybe the cavemen brewing Hefe only had fresh green cloves, rather than ripe and dried, for reference. (I have honestly considered this) But that doesn't provide modern tasters with an accurate reference. Just about any other aroma and flavor has one, or at least someone has tried. This one is in a parallel universe almost.

It turns out the BJCP has for decades mis-referenced acetaldehyde as 'green apple', which while technically correct, is not accurately descriptive because what most people think of as 'green apple' is Granny Smith or similar, when what the guideline writers meant was 'unripe apple'. Those are two very different things.

 

[Bigbre04]

tasting notes are really tough. everyone's tastes are different. i kinda of get the clove thing off a really good Hefe.

the best way that i can describe it is as the first thing you smell is a hint of clove. that then blends with the nanner scent. i dont really taste clove, but i get it in the very beginning of the nose.

some people are scent-sivitive to different things in very different quantities. i have to get up over the "technical" threshold to taste diacetyl where another brewer friend says he gets at the very lowest levels. I know a guy who was OBSESSED with oxidation, he spent a ton of money buying testing gear for DO decades ago as a tiny brewpub headbrewer. Its far more known and controllable now but damn dude was so sensitive to oxidation i am not sure how he drank beer out of a glass.

 

[J A]

Agreed...Hefeweizen is seldom if ever particularly "spicy" and if it is, it's low-level, vaguely cinnamon-ish. I can see the white pepper, but I get a lot of earthy barnyard/leather/tobacco notes from that. though there's no denying the aromatic nature of it. In hefeweizen, there's far more banana, fruit, bubble-gum and ethyl-acetate sort of notes.
I find that Witbier yeasts are generally more interesting to me and the flavors do tend more toward spiciness, though, again, clove isn't exactly spot-on as a comparative aroma. Definitely white pepper/black pepper in there along with allspice/cinnamon/clove notes.

 

[Herm brews]

Might we describe it as phenolic?

 

[J A]

Might we describe it as phenolic?

Phenolic is most often used to describe an off flavor that's harsh, chemical, band-aid, medicinal, among other things.

 

[Donoroto]

Not phenolic. But the ‘clove’ is subtle at its strongest, as @Bigbre04 notes. My Hefe has had some in some batches.

Similarly, we get Banana, but sniff a banana and sniff my beer, they are in the same family but not the same. But for clove, ‘spicy’ is too broad a term, so it is called clove or white pepper.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

tasting notes are really tough. everyone's tastes are different. i kinda of get the clove thing off a really good Hefe.

the best way that i can describe it is as the first thing you smell is a hint of clove. that then blends with the nanner scent. i dont really taste clove, but i get it in the very beginning of the nose.

some people are scent-sivitive to different things in very different quantities. i have to get up over the "technical" threshold to taste diacetyl where another brewer friend says he gets at the very lowest levels. I know a guy who was OBSESSED with oxidation, he spent a ton of money buying testing gear for DO decades ago as a tiny brewpub headbrewer. Its far more known and controllable now but damn dude was so sensitive to oxidation i am not sure how he drank beer out of a glass.

I know full well what Cloves smell like. I do smell something other than Banana in a Hefe and it is a tad 'spicy' but 'Clove' is decidedly not it.

I get the sensory threshold bit. I also understand some versions are heavier or lighter on this phenol, and I know that has to do with a Ferulic acid rest in the mash to create the precursor.

That is not what I'm getting at. I'm saying *when* it is detected, 'Clove' is a *wrong* reference for it. The two are nothing alike. Saying they are to some people is like claiming some people smell Prunes when the rest of us smell Banana, *AND* those people know full well what Banana smells like.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Agreed...Hefeweizen is seldom if ever particularly "spicy" and if it is, it's low-level, vaguely cinnamon-ish. I can see the white pepper, but I get a lot of earthy barnyard/leather/tobacco notes from that. though there's no denying the aromatic nature of it. In hefeweizen, there's far more banana, fruit, bubble-gum and ethyl-acetate sort of notes.
I find that Witbier yeasts are generally more interesting to me and the flavors do tend more toward spiciness, though, again, clove isn't exactly spot-on as a comparative aroma. Definitely white pepper/black pepper in there along with allspice/cinnamon/clove notes.

I'm pretty sure Bubblegum is now considered a 'flaw'. I believe it is a fermentation problem if I recall. I've never detected it in a true German commercial example.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Might we describe it as phenolic?

It is indeed a phenol, the problem is that is a bit too generic like 'citrus' or worse, 'fruity', or 'malty'.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Phenolic is most often used to describe an off flavor that's harsh, chemical, band-aid, medicinal, among other things.

That is a type of phenol for sure, and definitely not pleasant. Don't forget 'burnt vacuum cleaner belt' in that category. Yes, I've judged a beer with it!

 

[Donoroto]

That is not what I'm getting at. I'm saying *when* it is detected, 'Clove' is a *wrong* reference for it. The two are nothing alike. Saying they are to some people is like claiming some people smell Prunes when the rest of us smell Banana, *AND* those people know full well what Banana smells like.

Fair.

What do you call it?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

No two people's palates are exactly alike. I would described the aroma of Hef's as spicy. If someone wanted to call it clove that's fine. Often the descriptor is used to describe what the aroma or flavor reminds them of and each person is going to experience it differently. To me, phenols in low levels remind me of black pepper, they have to be at excessive levels to come across as band-aid and even then I wouldn't describe them as band-aid. But I understand what phenols are to me, but not necessarily to someone else.

There are times when I can't describe the aroma or flavor because I lack a good reference. I know I perceive sulfur different from other people, I'm super sensitive to it and it can come across as vomit with the certain combinations of hops. I had to learn what diacetyl smelled and tested like, I knew something was wrong with the beer, but i couldn't verbalize it accurately. I also realized my palate changes from day to day, mood effects the palate. One day I pick up a flaw in a beer and the next day it's gone. Understanding human limitations goes a long way in working through the different descriptors people use.

The best way to come to terms with it, is to drink a fair amount of the "target" beer or style and "calibrate" your palate. Getting stuck on the terms to describe a aroma/flavor that others use won't always help you.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Fair.

What do you call it?

Until I can find a better reference (hence the thread): White Pepper.

 

[J A]

I'm pretty sure Bubblegum is now considered a 'flaw'. I believe it is a fermentation problem if I recall. I've never detected it in a true German commercial example.

Yeah...I think of bubblegum as a sort of generic fake fruit flavor. I seldom really like the hefeweizens offered by local craft breweries, though I order them occasionally. When I find a German hefe on tap, I remember why I like the style.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

No two people's palates are exactly alike. I would described the aroma of Hef's as spicy. If someone wanted to call it clove that's fine. Often the descriptor is used to describe what the aroma or flavor reminds them of and each person is going to experience it differently.

To a point yes, but then there is that Banana/Prune analogy I noted above. Sometimes, a reference is simply not in the same universe, especially when all parties do indeed have the same references.

To me, phenols in low levels remind me of black pepper, they have to be at excessive levels to come across as band-aid and even then I wouldn't describe them as band-aid. But I understand what phenols are to me, but not necessarily to someone else.

I don't think 'phenolic' is a single thing. Like sulphur (thiols) it presents differently at various concentrations and in combinations with other chemicals.

I'm most often using the term to describe the plastic/rubber variety, but I understand spice/pepper fits the term too sometimes.

There are times when I can't describe the aroma or flavor because I lack a good reference. I know I perceive sulfur different from other people, I'm super sensitive to it and it can come across as vomit with the certain combinations of hops.

Interestingly, sulphur is the base for thiols in hops from which most of their flavor and aroma is derived. Which thiols are present and in which combinations, determines flavor/aroma. You could say most if not all hops are, 'thiolic'. (I doubt that is a word)

I had to learn what diacetyl smelled and tested like, I knew something was wrong with the beer, but i couldn't verbalize it accurately. I also realized my palate changes from day to day, mood effects the palate. One day I pick up a flaw in a beer and the next day it's gone. Understanding human limitations goes a long way in working through the different descriptors people use.

Same here. I also recently learned how to give your nose and palate a break and do 'drive by' sniffing and tasting so as not to desensitize yourself to something, especially if it strong, like sulphur compounds.

The best way to come to terms with it, is to drink a fair amount of the "target" beer or style and "calibrate" your palate. Getting stuck on the terms to describe a aroma/flavor that others use won't always help you.

I have brewed and consumed enough examples of Hefeweizen to be personally classified as a Human Spicy Banana. I'm not getting stuck on someone else's terms. I'm curious to know why it was chosen and if anyone else thinks it is indeed an accurate reference. Maybe there is a history to back this up that I can't find. (see Caveman theory above) So far, I haven't found anyone who is 100% on board with 'Clove' being true. (unless there is some weird special Clove out there...)

I also don't expect to change the world (or German brewers!) with a forum thread.

 

[Shady Lane Brewing]

No two people's palates are exactly alike. I would described the aroma of Hef's as spicy. If someone wanted to call it clove that's fine. Often the descriptor is used to describe what the aroma or flavor reminds them of and each person is going to experience it differently. To me, phenols in low levels remind me of black pepper, they have to be at excessive levels to come across as band-aid and even then I wouldn't describe them as band-aid. But I understand what phenols are to me, but not necessarily to someone else.

There are times when I can't describe the aroma or flavor because I lack a good reference. I know I perceive sulfur different from other people, I'm super sensitive to it and it can come across as vomit with the certain combinations of hops. I had to learn what diacetyl smelled and tested like, I knew something was wrong with the beer, but i couldn't verbalize it accurately. I also realized my palate changes from day to day, mood effects the palate. One day I pick up a flaw in a beer and the next day it's gone. Understanding human limitations goes a long way in working through the different descriptors people use.

The best way to come to terms with it, is to drink a fair amount of the "target" beer or style and "calibrate" your palate. Getting stuck on the terms to describe a aroma/flavor that others use won't always help you.

I was thinking about the changing-palate phenomenon recently. One day I say to myself, "Wow, I like how this IPA turned out!'' The next day it's, "What happened to the IPA I liked so much yesterday?" I wondered the same thing: Does my mood affect how I perceive a beer?

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

Based on the concept of concentration and balance changing the presentation of a chemical, I'll hazard that if it were possible to get the 4VG compound bumped to a high enough concentration (not sure that it is possible) and with the right balance of Banana, along with standing on your left pinky toe on a near-full Blue Moon, you *might* be able to sense true Clove.

Scratch that. I see if it gets too high, it becomes medicinal...

And that it can turn into vanillin, which is likely why some folks detect Vanilla in a Hefe.

https://www.beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/m5KXpWfsT2

Of course, they use the dastardly Clove term throughout.

 

[Bigbre04]

I know full well what Cloves smell like. I do smell something other than Banana in a Hefe and it is a tad 'spicy' but 'Clove' is decidedly not it.

I get the sensory threshold bit. I also understand some versions are heavier or lighter on this phenol, and I know that has to do with a Ferulic acid rest in the mash to create the precursor.

That is not what I'm getting at. I'm saying *when* it is detected, 'Clove' is a *wrong* reference for it. The two are nothing alike. Saying they are to some people is like claiming some people smell Prunes when the rest of us smell Banana, *AND* those people know full well what Banana smells like.

damn its like we are starting to talk about wine tasting notes! lol! i cant wait for someone to describe a beer as smelling like old leather books and deep shoe polish. fucking wine.

i totally get what you are saying.

I too have considered myself a spicy banana at different times!

i think the best bet is just to blame the Germans.