What's Up with the Boil Size in Recipe Builder

[oliver]

i like the update, i just don't think it's currently calculating correctly based on my profile.

My profile is set to boil 3qt/hour, so i set my boil time to 60 minutes, boil size to 3 gallons, but ending kettle wants to show 1.875 or something. I either do 60 min boils from 3.25->2.5 or 3->2.25, or I'll do a 40 minute boil from 3->2.5.

(for reference, with brewing in small batches, i have 0 loss, everything from the boil kettle makes it through to the fermenter)

 

[J A]

And for me personally, I've now met a couple of you in person and that is even better. So I know where you are coming from, appreciate you as friends and members of the Brewer's Friend family, and I read every single comment.

Speaking of which, when are you guys going to make it back to Texas? You're due for some snowbirding in the Valley, aren't you?

 

[Nosybear]

All it does, as near as I can tell, is deduct boil losses from your total initial kettle volume. It takes the boil-off rate in your default profile, multiplies it by the boil time and subtracts that from the boil size. I do have a kettle loss set, it does not appear in the calculations. If you're listening, much more useful would be to be able to input the target fermentor volume then have the software calculate back to the boil size, taking all the losses from kettle to fermentor into account. Say I want 5 gallons in the kettle. I put that in. The software adds my boil-off, my hop absorption, my kettle loss and any other miscellaneous losses and tells me I need to boil 6.375 gallons to achieve that. Based on my math, the current implementation is off: I have more than the 4 quarts of boil-off losses. I have hop absorption, trub loss, miscellaneous losses (samples, etc.) and a bit of wort left in the kettle. So the result of the "calc" button should be something like 4.875 gallons rather than the 5.0 I get.

 

[Nosybear]

Or Denver. It's lovely here in the monsoon season.

 

[J A]

All it does, as near as I can tell, is deduct boil losses from your total initial kettle volume.

Yeah...As you mentioned earlier, it doesn't anything other than the really simple math but leaves the rest of the actual calculation to be figured out based on other losses. It would be pretty awesome if all the calculations were integrated in a way that communicates with the Brew day functions and the full equipment profile.
With the hypothetical 5 gallon batch, it would be great to just fill in the desired batch size and have the figures populate all the way back to total volume of mash and sparge liquor. For all the trouble that the developers have gone to, it's still pretty piecemeal when it comes to actually putting together a brew day.
For every new batch I do, I have to go through several editing sessions to get the user-input figures in the recipe calculator to agree with the profile-derived water requirements section and the volumes and PH figures in the water chemistry section of the Brew log. This particular feature doesn't really do anything to change that....just another figure to reconcile in the process.

And we said we were done with input on the subject!
Today is a new day...we can start over!

 

[thunderwagn]

Speaking of which, when are you guys going to make it back to Texas? You're due for some snowbirding in the Valley, aren't you?

Curious if you're referring to the Rio Grande Valley? Spent my younger yrs in the McAllen, Mission, Pharr area.

 

[J A]

Curious if you're referring to the Rio Grande Valley? Spent my younger yrs in the McAllen, Mission, Pharr area.

Yeah...I'm in Austin but the Valley or South Texas coast is the common destination. Yooper and her husband have spent time in the Central Texas area too. There are a lot worse places to wait out a Michigan winter.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah...I'm in Austin but the Valley or South Texas coast is the common destination. Yooper and her husband have spent time in the Central Texas area too. There are a lot worse places to wait out a Michigan winter.

I'd love to- but we ended up buying a house in Florida this past winter. After Hurricane Harvey blew away the house we rented, as well as 85% of the city of Rockport, we realized that it would be at least 5 years before any rebuilding made significant progress so that's why we went to the Hill Country. Bob missed saltwater fishing so much that we needed to get back to the Gulf coast. And he picked Ozello FL off of a map and we loved it!

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

If you're listening, much more useful would be to be able to input the target fermentor volume then have the software calculate back to the boil size, taking all the losses from kettle to fermentor into account. Say I want 5 gallons in the kettle. I put that in. The software adds my boil-off, my hop absorption, my kettle loss and any other miscellaneous losses and tells me I need to boil 6.375 gallons to achieve that.

Agreed, this is precisely what I did in my software.

Start with batch size (which is the only user input), then calculate each step backwards from the equipment profile and recipe stats.

Post boil (chilled) = batch size + kettle losses

Pre boil ( hot) = thermal expansion coefficient *( post boil + ( boil rate * boil time ) + hop losses )

Sparge run offs, sparge infusion volume, mash run off volume, mash infusions, total water needed etc etc.

 

[Nosybear]

Does this only work for new recipes? Because when I tried it on an existing recipe, all it did was calculate the boil off. None of the losses in my profile were deducted. Hence my underwhelmed reaction.

 

[J A]

Does this only work for new recipes? Because when I tried it on an existing recipe, all it did was calculate the boil off. None of the losses in my profile were deducted. Hence my underwhelmed reaction.

It doesn't agree with the water requirements in the Brew log. It only works from the user-input pre-boil volume and only seems to subtract the boil-off. Changes in hop amount doesn't seem to change the post boil volume so it's not subtracting hop losses.

I'm not sure what problem it was supposed to solve but the process of getting mash, sparge, batch and boil volumes to agree between the editor and the brew log is still as unwieldy and time-consuming as ever. If it was something connected with confusion between batch size and OG as Yooper mentioned, I don't see how this helped. OG is based on Pre-boil gravity and volume and boil-off volume. Gravity won't change with additional losses. Brewhouse efficiency will definitely change, but the gravity of the wort at the start of fermentation is the same no matter how much makes it from the kettle to the fermenter. This feature still doesn't give an accurate fermenter volume and the definition of Batch size is still up in the air. Is it 5 gallons at the end of boil, 5 gallons going into the fermenter or 5 gallons of finished beer? Most of us know that if we want to make a 5 gallon batch to actually fill a 5-gallon keg, we have to have around 5.5 gallons in the fermenter which means at least 6 gallons at the end of the boil - much more depending on a particular system. If an inexperienced brewer goes into it thinking that a 5 gallon batch size is going to result in 53.3 bottles of beer, they'll see the very first time around that the batch size has to be adjusted to fit the desired result.

I thought it was already established that toggling between kettle and fermenter as a target for efficiency established whether batch size was reflecting post boil volume or fermenter volume, at least in terms of efficiency. I've never seen any disparity or problem with OG figures. The calculated OG has always agreed with my results. If this feature is going to actually enhance the process, a whole lot more needs to be integrated into the editor-derived inputs. For now, I'll just do as I've been doing and work around the clutter with proper calculations based on my system and user-input figures that make everything come out right.

 

[oliver]

@mods,

Pressing the calc button next to Post volume has now started to do the correct calculation according to my boil rate in my profile, however, it should also take into account what boil time I put in the recipe. It assumes 60 min boil and grabs that number.

 

[Nosybear]

@mods,

Pressing the calc button next to Post volume has now started to do the correct calculation according to my boil rate in my profile, however, it should also take into account what boil time I put in the recipe. It assumes 60 min boil and grabs that number.

I've tried it with 90 mins and it adjusts but all it does is calculate boil off. Varying other values in the profile have no effect.

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

Linking relevant thread again since it's the cause of this discussion

https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum...er-volumes-and-use-equipment-boil-size.11715/

I still vote to make the following changes: @Yooper

1) Get rid of the non-toggleable ? button, which cannot be turned off in it's current state and does not show whether it's on or off. It's confusing, and is incorrectly applying the OG formula, with the brewhouse efficiency to postboil volumes. If this is corrected to use the ending kettle (aka mash efficiency per braukaiser), then it will function the same as the "Target: Kettle" dropdown and is redundant.

2) Change the pre and postboil input values to be calculated values only, based on the equipment profile and recipe so it is in line with the brew log. Included all equipment loses, thermal expansion coefficients, and losses to hops, grains to top off water additons, and gains to late sugar additions.

2A: These values could be moved elsewhere, either to the >More>batch stats section and create a table of pre/post boil volumes and gravities , or all four of them could be moved to a new "process/volumes" section which could include sparging and top off boil volumes and resolve another issue of not integrating the water volume requirements in the recipe builder.

 

[Nosybear]

Linking relevant thread again since it's the cause of this discussion

https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum...er-volumes-and-use-equipment-boil-size.11715/

I still vote to make the following changes: @Yooper

1) Get rid of the non-toggleable ? button, which cannot be turned off in it's current state and does not show whether it's on or off. It's confusing, and is incorrectly applying the OG formula, with the brewhouse efficiency to postboil volumes. If this is corrected to use the ending kettle (aka mash efficiency per braukaiser), then it will function the same as the "Target: Kettle" dropdown and is redundant.

2) Change the pre and postboil input values to be calculated values only, based on the equipment profile and recipe so it is in line with the brew log. Included all equipment loses, thermal expansion coefficients, and losses to hops, grains to top off water additons, and gains to late sugar additions.

2A: These values could be moved elsewhere, either to the >More>batch stats section and create a table of pre/post boil volumes and gravities , or all four of them could be moved to a new "process/volumes" section which could include sparging and top off boil volumes and resolve another issue of not integrating the water volume requirements in the recipe builder.

I second this....

 

[J A]

I still don't understand the problem that existed to cause it to be requested. How many brewers were having trouble with such a simple part of the process?
Now when I open an old recipe, one that's established and definitely correct, the editor gives me a different OG. So, great! Thanks for that. Once again, all the information that I've stored and all the recipes that I've archived are at risk if I open them in the current "improved" version of the editor. I give up!

 

[Pricelessbrewing]

I still don't understand the problem that existed to cause it to be requested. How many brewers were having trouble with such a simple part of the process?

See the thread I linked in my last post for more info.

The update fixed some of the unintended issues, and made the rest of the issues visible instead of invisible by creating the pre/post boil volume boxes. (hence this thread)

The issues still existed before if you used the "use equipment boil" option in the more section (which is now the "?" Button that cannot be turned off).

If you don't use the ? Button, and align the boil volumes correctly, it should behave exactly as it did before. If that is not the case, it may help yooper and the devs if a link to an example recipe or screen shot is provided.

 

[J A]

Whatever...

 

[Yooper]

We are still talking about this, and I'll be adding to the documentation on this as well. Thank you for all of the input!

 

[Yooper]

I was looking at the brew log vs the set up in Recipe Builder, and we do need to somehow make those work better together.
I put together some documentation in the "learn" area of the site.

It's this:

Our way of calculating efficiency has changed, and this is noticed on the Recipe Builder page. You can choose your boil size, and the amount of wort at the end by choosing the volume going into the fermenter, or the volume at the end of the boil. Those choices do NOT impact your efficiency calculation, but are there to assist you in ensuring your volumes are correct for your brewing.

To understand the efficiency calculation, an example is best.

Let’s say your boil starts at 6 gallons. You have 120 points of fermentables (e.g. 5 pounds of 30 ppg at 80% efficiency). You boil down to 5 gallons. In this example, your system may lose 1 gallon to kettle dead space, hop absorption, losses to the way you transfer wort, wort left in the chiller, and so on. In this case, you up with 4 gallons in the fermenter.

In the old method:

You’d select the fermenter target, and enter 6 gallons as your boil size. Four gallons would be your batch size, since that is the volume going into the fermenter.

The software assumed that the difference from the 6 gallons at the beginning reducing to 4 gallons as the batch size was all boil-off.

As a result, the OG was calculated as: 1 + ( 120 / 4 ) * 0.001 = 1.030

That is clearly wrong because it indicates that all fermentable sugar was condensed into 4 gallons of wort. The reality is that it was condensed into 5 gallons of wort, and some of that was simply thrown away. The loss of wort does not increase specific gravity of the remaining wort, of course. The loss would have the same SG as the wort going into the fermenter.

So in our updated calculation, you would select the batch size of 4 gallons as the target into the fermenter, enter 6 gallons as pre-boil size, and 5 gallons as post-boil size.

You can also let the system calculate from your equipment profile’s boil-off rate. ( For me, I choose my numbers as my boil-off rate changes with temperature and humidity in my house).

Now the OG can be calculated correctly:

1 + ( 120 / 5 ) * 0.001 = 1.024


You will notice that it is a 20% difference. That seems small to some, but we wanted to give the most accurate OG predictions possible for our users, both homebrewers and professionals.