IPA kit+ Yes or no?

[Brewer #42226]

I'm a relatively new homebrewer. I made my first kit about a decade ago, made several batches and then got out of it for a decade. In the meantime I made many fruit wines and at least 1 batch of hard cider every year. Getting back into beer last year I started slow with a few kits and now want to experiment a little. I've got a nice Brewer's Best Pacific Coast IPA kit going that I added a couple oz. of fresh ginger and 1/2 tsp of crushed black pepper to in the final 10 minutes of the boil. I plan on adding mango when I rack it to the secondary - exact quantity yet to be determined. Another thing I'm wanting to try is adding another yeast, preferably a wine yeast. I think I've settled on a Lalvin 71-1122 wine yeast to give it a bit of a boost alcohol-wise and to enhance some of the tropical flavors. One of the articles I was researching said to let the primary beer yeast get a head start to give more of a beer flavor to it and pitch the wine yeast after the fermenting has started to slow down to add the complexity then. Given the fact that I'm going to be adding mango to it when I rack it I wonder if there's any further considerations. Or if the extra yeast is just a bad idea to begin with? I'm the sort that just likes experimenting, but then again I don't want to waste a batch of beer. Any thoughts?

 

[KC]

The timing seems convenient to do both mango and 2nd yeast at secondary. If you have the ability to cold crash before racking, it may help to prevent yeasts from competing.

What are you using for the primary yeast? You won't get a significant boost in alcohol unless you start with a particularly stubborn or inefficient ale yeast. I actually think you could get the amyl ester tropical flavors from something like a Belgian or saison yeast. I'm trying one like that right now with ginger, yams, mosaic, and belle saison. I can follow up and report if that gets the tropical fruit and banana I'm looking for.

 

[Head First]

Concept that hasn't been discussed on this forum much but any exbeerimentation is good. Ditto what KC said. You might want to look for a beer yeast that will stall out early and leave something for wine yeast. The saison he is using will control the fermentation and eat all the sugar. Maybe something that will slow with higher alcohol then your wine yeast to finish it.

 

[Brewer #42226]

I'm trying to find the kind of yeast it was; they just list "yeast" in the ingredients online (other ingredients: 6.6 lb light LME, 1 lb corn sugar; 8 oz Caramel grains, 8 oz Victory grains, 4 oz. Carpools grains; 1 oz Columbus hops, 1 oz citra hops, 2 oz amarillo hops, 1.5 oz cascade hops.) I haven't tossed the garbage out yet so when I get home tonight I might be able to find the empty package. But, ultimately for this batch it's too late to change that because it's already pitched. It took a little longer to get going than I thought, but it's a nice mellow ferment, nothing overflowing or clogging the airlock.

One of the reasons I chose Lalvin 71-1122 as a wine yeast is because it won't kill of the beer yeast, but that's also why I'm going to add it later - so the wine yeast has more to do with the finishing of the beer and less to do with the primary ferment. I was thinking it would increase the alcohol slightly because wine yeasts can typically survive higher alcohol content, so when the beer yeast stalls out there should be sugars left for the wine yeasts to work on - is this faulty thinking?

My original thinking was to pitch the wine yeast when the beer yeast slowed down, but before racking into the secondary. You both think waiting til I add fruit and move it to the secondary would be the way to go?

Thanks for the replies!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Ive found that wine or even champagne yeast do not taste good in beer, the yeast I used gave a wine flavor which was awful to me, not saying your process will fail its always good to try, Ive found the oddest or quick no thought beers Ive made are better than the ones I planed for so anything can happen

 

[chub1]

One i have in the pipeline for later in the year,interested to hear how this pan's out
Will be using an ale yeast however

 

[Brewer #42226]

Ive found that wine or even champagne yeast do not taste good in beer, the yeast I used gave a wine flavor which was awful to me, not saying your process will fail its always good to try, Ive found the oddest or quick no thought beers Ive made are better than the ones I planed for so anything can happen

Have you tried different wine/champagne yeasts to compare? I've found articles that say some work well and some don't. I've also found information saying some wine yeasts will kill off beer yeasts and the wine yeasts can't digest the complex sugars found in worts very well so the beer can become under attenuated.

 

[Nosybear]

Ive found that wine or even champagne yeast do not taste good in beer, the yeast I used gave a wine flavor which was awful to me, not saying your process will fail its always good to try, Ive found the oddest or quick no thought beers Ive made are better than the ones I planed for so anything can happen

I've found that with a bit of patience and some heat, even the notorious WY3724 will ferment out completely. Might take a while but then, that's how Saisons were originally made: Made when it was cool to serve when it was hot. I'm also just guessing here but one good thing about the scavenged champagne bottles they were packaged in mean that any sugar left over could ferment causing carbonation to go very high, no data or information but a thought. In any case, saison yeast is rumored to be a wine yeast descendant. I've tried (before learning that patience will usually yield a fully-fermented Saison) champagne yeast with no off flavors but the winner, hands-down: WLP 090, San Diego Super Yeast. It'll dry anything out.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Have you tried different wine/champagne yeasts to compare? I've found articles that say some work well and some don't. I've also found information saying some wine yeasts will kill off beer yeasts and the wine yeasts can't digest the complex sugars found in worts very well so the beer can become under attenuated.

Lalvin Dried Wine Yeast EC #1118
this was my latest test, not only did it taste bad, I couldn't get the wine smell out of the
fermenter, it didn't smell bad just not something that would go with beer

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I've found that with a bit of patience and some heat, even the notorious WY3724 will ferment out completely. Might take a while but then, that's how Saisons were originally made: Made when it was cool to serve when it was hot. I'm also just guessing here but one good thing about the scavenged champagne bottles they were packaged in mean that any sugar left over could ferment causing carbonation to go very high, no data or information but a thought. In any case, saison yeast is rumored to be a wine yeast descendant. I've tried (before learning that patience will usually yield a fully-fermented Saison) champagne yeast with no off flavors but the winner, hands-down: WLP 090, San Diego Super Yeast. It'll dry anything out.

Im a big fan of WLP90, I havent used it in years, I need to

 

[KC]

I was thinking it would increase the alcohol slightly because wine yeasts can typically survive higher alcohol content, so when the beer yeast stalls out there should be sugars left for the wine yeasts to work on - is this faulty thinking?

Beer yeast is only going to stall out from alcohol if the gravity goes over 1.100. Even then, many strains can handle it and you get barleywine. If you're only adding fruit/juice it won't get that high. The sugar isn't concentrated enough.

I tried this method with fruit wines but couldn't add anywhere near the amount needed to stall yeast with residual sugar.

 

[J A]

Good mash conversion and adjunct fermentables add ABV, not different yeasts. There are some yeasts that want to stall, but most will give you just about everything you can get out of your mash. If you want attenuation, use Danstar Nottingham. Or just mash well and use US-05...I've gotten up to 87% with it.

 

[jeffpn]

I'm trying to find the kind of yeast it was; they just list "yeast" in the ingredients online

I bet it was Danstar American West Coast yeast BRY-97. I've seen that in their kits.

 

[krackin]

You know, after centuries of brewing, there is a reason for beer yeasts and wine yeasts. Try as you may by mixing the two, it is unlikely that you will invent a rounder wheel. That doesn't mean new strains won't be developed, but I'm thinking that isn't going to get it there.

Any ale yeasts I've used have worked well with ginger. A pound of good ginger per 5 gal final volume is good.. C hops, bursted from 30 minutes. No spices.

 

[Brewer #42226]

You know, after centuries of brewing, there is a reason for beer yeasts and wine yeasts. Try as you may by mixing the two, it is unlikely that you will invent a rounder wheel. That doesn't mean new strains won't be developed, but I'm thinking that isn't going to get it there.

Any ale yeasts I've used have worked well with ginger. A pound of good ginger per 5 gal final volume is good.. C hops, bursted from 30 minutes. No spices.

Yes, but going to the store and getting a 6 pack of busch lite works too. Why home brew if you look at it that way?

And, actually, if you research it even some commercial enterprises are having good luck combining the two kinds of yeasts. It's just a matter of knowing which yeasts both work well with the style of beer you're making and together.

 

[J A]

Why home brew if you look at it that way?

There's a place for experimentation, but since you are a "relatively new homebrewer" you'd do well to establish your process and brew relatively simple beer that's consistently of high quality first and foremost. Seems like the majority of new homebrewers just can't wait to either brew beers with a high ABV or go all mad-scientist start throwing in odd ingredients or both.
I just helped judge a Belgian category homebrew competition and I can absolutely attest that many of the beers entered were not nearly as good as Busch light. One "Witbier" looked like vegetable soup broth and tasted like lime Kool-Aid.
Go ahead and try your experiment, but I'd split-batch and brew half with regular yeast so you can see for yourself what sort of flavor contribution the wine yeast makes.
Be sure to follow up and let us know how it comes out.
Good luck!

 

[Nosybear]

It seems the arc of a home brewer is make a decent kit beer, spend the next year making mediocre exotic beer, either give up or start learning process, then learn to brew outstanding classic styles. I've noticed the same thing when judging and at homebrew events: i'd much rather have a Fat Tire or a Blue Moon than, sorry, most of what I taste there. I almost never criticize the beer, I just offer a suggestion to help solve the worst problem then dump it as quickly as possible.

 

[J A]

I almost never criticize the beer, I just offer a suggestion to help solve the worst problem then dump it as quickly as possible.

I tried to find something positive to say somewhere along the line, but I'm afraid I wasn't particularly gentle on a few points.

 

[Nosybear]

I tried to find something positive to say somewhere along the line, but I'm afraid I wasn't particularly gentle on a few points.

Brother, I share your pain.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Hay you dont have to drink the whole lot just taste it lol. You did have a spit bucket? Next time im at a comp im going to write down the entry numbers of the beers i loved then when comp is done and dusted go and seek these beers out of the entry fridge. I was last to leave the last comp and i tell you what most all of the comp beers were just sitting in the fridge ready to be poured down the sink! The organiser said help yourself to as many bottles as you want i left with a swag of swingtop bottles for home they were going to waste anyhow...