Cream Ale/Red Lager

[Bigbre04]

Hey yall,

I was thinking that a cream ale may in my near future. thoughts on the recipe below?

Cream Ale
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1638738

I am also getting close to needing to order grain. So that means that i am in scrape together whatever i an based on what i have. Soo...I have a whole bag of RedX. I was thinking that i would get the ball rolling on a clean bright red lager for summer time. My amber/red/brown line will be occupied by an amber mexican lager following the coconut brown ale that is on draft now. but i could slip a red lager in and no one would complain!

Red Lager
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1638741

 

[Brew Cat]

Loose the victory IMO

I used German Ale yeast in my last cream ale and liked might add a cream ale to my German ale yeast rotation but US-05 will certainly work

 

[Bigbre04]

Loose the victory IMO

I used German Ale yeast in my last cream ale and liked might add a cream ale to my German ale yeast rotation but US-05 will certainly work

Interesting. I have kolsch yeast and SD on hand. Otherwise, i have several german lager yeasts but not a German ale yeast(other then kolsch). I am actually brewing a mango kolsch on Wednesday.

This is the kolsch recipe:
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1569117

I can pull the victory. was just going for a bit of grain flavor from it.

did you look at the Red Lager?

 

[J A]

Personally, I'd switch your yeast choices...I've done 2-row and corn on S-23 (Apex Berlin?) at warmer temps many times and it's extremely good. Your Kolsch yeast would be a better choice, as well. Maybe you can get clean malt flavor from your Chico so that might work okay...I just like to avoid extra fruitiness in a Cream Ale and I've had Chico get very peachy at lower temps.

Your Red looks to be a really nice fairly light American Amber, perfect for the Chico.

 

[Bigbre04]

i will likely brew the Red Lager next week as it would benefit from aging in the cooler and the ambers/mexican lager that i have had on have sold really well and very quickly.

It would also be cool to brew another strong lager or belgian triple and sit on it for a few months. would annoy the kitchen but thats why i exist lol.


Current draft list:
1 Coconut brown ale 6.1% -> Amber Mexican Lager 5.4%
2 Maibock 6.8% -> Mango Kolsch 5.8%
3 Keylime pie sour 5.3%
4 American IPA 7.1%
5 Golden Lager 5%
6 Black Lager 5.8%
7 Imperial Golden Lager 8.3%-> Ital pils 5.5%
8 Session IPA 5%

I have room to store 1 full tank cold and carbonated in the cooler so i could do a triple or something to burn the grain to get my grain order done next week....tough call!

Personally, I'd switch your yeast choices...I've done 2-row and corn on S-23 (Apex Berlin?) at warmer temps many times and it's extremely good. Your Kolsch yeast would be a better choice, as well. Maybe you can get clean malt flavor from your Chico so that might work okay...I just like to avoid extra fruitiness in a Cream Ale and I've had Chico get very peachy at lower temps.

Your Red looks to be a really nice fairly light American Amber, perfect for the Chico.

It seems pretty clean generally. i find the kolsch yeast to end up more fruity then the chico??? Would you normally ferment this colder then standard?

I could just switch this to a different type of lager. On hand i have mexican lager, munich lager, augustin. I also have belgian abbey, voss, chico, and hefe. I have plenty of time to play around with lager yeasts.

 

[J A]

It seems pretty clean generally. i find the kolsch yeast to end up more fruity then the chico??? Would you normally ferment this colder then standard?

I could just switch this to a different type of lager. On hand i have mexican lager, munich lager, augustin. I also have belgian abbey, voss, chico, and hefe. I have plenty of time to play around with lager yeasts.

I just don't think of Chico as a "clean" yeast for malty styles. The fruity flavor profile tends toward a soft, stone-fruit palette but it stays pretty low compared to the S-04 "cherry cough drop" sort of sharp fruitiness. When I've run Chico at 64 degrees, thinking I'd get a malty neutral blonde, I've gotten strong over-ripe peach flavor which is interesting but a little much and not what I was looking for. And I've had that result more than once. Those esters play very well with hop flavors but I don't think they play up maltiness very well.
The only Kolsch yeast I've used is K-97 which seems to run very clean and malty at 58F or lower and gets a pretty pleasant pear ester at 60F and higher. And it wants to throw a little sulfur when fermented cold, like a lager yeast. To me the pear/ripe apple/grape sort of fruit esters stays out of the way of dry malt flavor better than the more stone-fruit Chico esters or cherry/orange esters in English yeasts.
For me, Cream Ale is stylistically closer to a lager than anything else. I've uses the S-23 on the warm side and it always works. I've also used S-33 (Apex Hazy?) both alone and in combination with the S-23. That one is extremely good for an interesting flavor profile and very rich mouthfeel. I always use Saaz and Cluster hops for Cream Ale and I think the strident hop flavors, held to a fairly low level, do a lot to balance the corn sweetness and whatever fruitiness is present from the fermentation.

 

[Brew Cat]

I second the Kolsch yeast
With the corn I'm just not feeling the victory
Might be to to much
I don't want to taste corn in my cream ale I'm worried the victory may pull that out
I could be wrong it's just in my head
I'll tell you I don't generally flavor hop my cream Ale but after a discussion with @Sunfire96 I did my last with Citra
Might make a nice beach beer

 

[Donoroto]

i will likely brew the Red Lager next week as it would benefit from aging in the cooler and the ambers/mexican lager that i have had on have sold really well and very quickly.

It would also be cool to brew another strong lager or belgian triple and sit on it for a few months. would annoy the kitchen but thats why i exist lol.


Current draft list:
1 Coconut brown ale 6.1% -> Amber Mexican Lager 5.4%
2 Maibock 6.8% -> Mango Kolsch 5.8%
3 Keylime pie sour 5.3%
4 American IPA 7.1%
5 Golden Lager 5%
6 Black Lager 5.8%
7 Imperial Golden Lager 8.3%-> Ital pils 5.5%
8 Session IPA 5%

I have room to store 1 full tank cold and carbonated in the cooler so i could do a triple or something to burn the grain to get my grain order done next week....tough call!



It seems pretty clean generally. i find the kolsch yeast to end up more fruity then the chico??? Would you normally ferment this colder then standard?

I could just switch this to a different type of lager. On hand i have mexican lager, munich lager, augustin. I also have belgian abbey, voss, chico, and hefe. I have plenty of time to play around with lager yeasts.

Just tell the kitchen manager that his kitchen is plenty large enough to make some storage room for you. I’m sure he will agree.

 

[Bigbre04]

I second the Kolsch yeast
With the corn I'm just not feeling the victory
Might be to to much
I don't want to taste corn in my cream ale I'm worried the victory may pull that out
I could be wrong it's just in my head
I'll tell you I don't generally flavor hop my cream Ale but after a discussion with @Sunfire96 I did my last with Citra
Might make a nice beach beer

i dont really get alot of flavor from corn, it is really very neutral atleast in my experience. Its basically the same as adding dextrose functionally, just less effecient lol. i could run the kolsch yeast cold(i generally run it at normal ale temps which must be why i get the fruity notes from it.

 

[Dave Y]

i dont really get alot of flavor from corn, it is really very neutral atleast in my experience. Its basically the same as adding dextrose functionally, just less effecient lol. i could run the kolsch yeast cold(i generally run it at normal ale temps which must be why i get the fruity notes from it.

you're at ~12% corn, my KY Common has almost 17% and you can definitely tell there's corn in it. I've seen/had other KYC with 3# in a 5-ish gallon batch and they tasted similar, but I was a bit nervous about that much corn in the mash bill. For ref., my 16.8% is 2# of corn in a 6.25 gallon "into the fermenter" batch.

The red lager looks good, I'd take it to 30-ish IBU though. As written it will be a bit malty for summer time IMO.

 

[Brew Cat]

you're at ~12% corn, my KY Common has almost 17% and you can definitely tell there's corn in it. I've seen/had other KYC with 3# in a 5-ish gallon batch and they tasted similar, but I was a bit nervous about that much corn in the mash bill. For ref., my 16.8% is 2# of corn in a 6.25 gallon "into the fermenter" batch.

The red lager looks good, I'd take it to 30-ish IBU though. As written it will be a bit malty for summer time IMO.

That's a lot of corn
I'm usually at about 10%
I've actually been cutting it back
The last cream ale I cut it with flaked wheat

 

[Megary]

I use 22% flaked corn in my Cream Ale, the rest is Pilsner malt (sometimes, I add a bit of sugar). There is no "corn" flavor that comes through, although the corn does a fantastic job of lightening the body and maybe giving a slight sweetness to the beer. I want my Cream Ale as light colored as possible, and as brilliantly clear as possible. A late hop of something noble (like Saaz or HM or Tett...) is a nice touch. W34/70 makes a great cream ale, so does chico. But the best Cream Ale I ever made was with WLP080, a hybrid lager/ale yeast.

I stole ideas from Drew Beechum's knock off of Genesee Cream Ale.
https://www.experimentalbrew.com/2017/01/24/i-dream-of-jenny/

 

[Brew Cat]

Drank plenty of Jenny in the day but my taste buds have changed and my cream ale has evolved
I'm not sure a straight up cream ale would be a seller anymore
Most recipes I've seen are going towards pilsner malt and the flavor there in
Traditional cream ale was 6 - row cut with flaked corn for a reason

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

The cream ale I brew (which is close to New Glarus Spotted Cow) has about 15% flaked maize/corn. Often I can pickup a hint of corn, which I like in a cream ale. Plus "A low to moderate corny flavor is commonly found," is in the BJCP guidelines. So style-wise there is no problem there.

 

[Bigbre04]

upped the corn, deleted the victory...does 2 row or pils make more sense here?

you're at ~12% corn, my KY Common has almost 17% and you can definitely tell there's corn in it. I've seen/had other KYC with 3# in a 5-ish gallon batch and they tasted similar, but I was a bit nervous about that much corn in the mash bill. For ref., my 16.8% is 2# of corn in a 6.25 gallon "into the fermenter" batch.

The red lager looks good, I'd take it to 30-ish IBU though. As written it will be a bit malty for summer time IMO.

ill take a look at the red lager tomorrow! carbed/packed 2 tanks, prepped for a brew, headed home! ended up looking at it.

added some midnight wheat, changed some of the weights on other things. i think that at 5.3-5.5% this will be a really good beer. the cascade feels right for a red lager? i think that at 24ish ibu with that hop schedule it should have a touch of hoppiness while not being "too" hoppy for normies.

at 16ish srm with that much redx it should be a really pretty color. my coconut brown is a similar srm and is very pretty. albeit, not very super brown more of a dark amber, but it is well liked.

 

[Megary]

upped the corn, deleted the victory...does 2 row or pils make more sense here?

I'd vote Pils. But either way, that's not a hill worth dying on.
Curious, what does the Wheat Malt bring at 5% that more base malt wouldn't?

 

[Brew Cat]

I always do at least some Pils but in a cream ale may be a waste at 100%
Cream ale was historically made with 6-row cut with corn to simulate a pilsner
If you have Pilsner malt I'd save it especially if you paid a premium
The Red ale looks good not sure I'd up the IBUs
Can't go wrong with Cascade hops

 

[Brew Cat]

I used to use a bit of wheat malt in similar styles instead of carapils for head retention
Some say neither makes a difference
I'm of the school that it doesn't hurt either

 

[Brew Cat]

I see you changed the Red Lager from a cream ale to a helles
It's neither
I'd call it a more of a Vienna Lager
Or some might call it Red Ale with lager yeast those same people brew a cream ale with lager yeast
See now you got me started

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

does 2 row or pils make more sense here?

I vote 2-row. You want it as clean as possible.