WY3068 Weihenstephan Users?

[Megary]

With a little luck, I'm hoping to brew a Weizen with this yeast on Sunday. Never used it before. (My only experience using any Weizen yeast was with Munich Classic and that experience was deemed an abject failure. )

This will be a 3-gallon, 1.048 batch. I'm looking for a balance between banana and clove.

Any tips, tricks or hacks?
Pitch rates?
Ferm temp advice?

Thanks in advance.

@Donoroto
@Blackmuse

 

[Minbari]

Only use it once. Fermented @72F and it was a banana bomb (what I was going for). For more clove I would go closer to 64F

 

[Donoroto]

The esters that give banana or, less, clove are enhanced when the yeast is stressed. Ferment at 68-69 for banana, lower for more clove.

I use a step mash and 4 oz of melanoidin (5 gal). Steps are 105-108, 145, and 152, each 25-35 minutes. Definitely use rice hulls, although biab is more forgiving. I have a recipe visible with some more info.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1023073/don-s-hefeweitzen

The yeast is great. I do prefer WLP 300, but the difference is small. Remember to transfer plenty of yeast into your keg or bottles, because you want that yeasty flavor too.

 

[Megary]

So, looking for a balance of clove and banana, I'm thinking of pitching around 63-64°, main fermenting around 66-67°, and finishing for a few days at 72°.

As a 3-gallon batch brewer, I will also only pitch ≈60% of the pack.

Step-mashing is an intriguing idea, though as a stove-top BIAB brewer it would be a bit of a challenge. I suppose I could mash-in at the first rest with somewhat less than full volume and then add a certain amount of hot water at a certain temp in order to reach each next step. Seems like a PITA and a lot of guess work, but not out of the question. I really need to get a false bottom for my kettle, crank up the heat and let her rip.

 

[Minbari]

So, looking for a balance of clove and banana, I'm thinking of pitching around 63-64°, main fermenting around 66-67°, and finishing for a few days at 72°.

As a 3-gallon batch brewer, I will also only pitch ≈60% of the pack.

Step-mashing is an intriguing idea, though as a stove-top BIAB brewer it would be a bit of a challenge. I suppose I could mash-in at the first rest with somewhat less than full volume and then add a certain amount of hot water at a certain temp in order to reach each next step. Seems like a PITA and a lot of guess work, but not out of the question. I really need to get a false bottom for my kettle, crank up the heat and let her rip.

Do it decoction style?

 

[Megary]

Do it decoction style?

Oh no...I'd foul that up something fierce. I'd just load up the "You know you did it wrong" thread.

Better I brew something else than do a decoction.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Do it decoction style?

That would be nice!
@Megary you can do step mash on stove top with Biab just lift the bag hit some heat then kill flame put bag in and stir and take a reading.

 

[Donoroto]

Oh no...I'd foul that up something fierce. I'd just load up the "You know you did it wrong" thread.

Better I brew something else than do a decoction.

I brewed it once at a straight temperature (152 iirc) and it was a little less banana-y but certainly acceptable. Don't sweat the step mash thing, it'll be fine.

I would love to say that I really prefer the banana, or maybe some bubblegum, but the truth of the matter is that I've had a hard time getting any clothes character out of this beer, even though I've brought it a dozen times. I even thought about putting a quarter teaspoon of powder clove into it, dammit. But I'll just keep playing with it and changing one little thing at a time so I get what I'm looking for.

In the meantime, it's a very smooth easy drinking beer and if you're not careful it can be over 6% and pack a wallop. Definitely a summertime beer.

 

[Megary]

Yeah, as much as I'd like to try a step-mash, Hockhurz, decoction etc. to see what they bring to the table, I think I'll stick with ol' faithful 152° for 60 minutes on this first run with 3068.

I'd like to get a balance of clove and banana but I have no idea exactly how to do that. I've got this exact question sent to Wyeast and I'll let you know if they get back to me.

 

[Megary]

Wyeast was quick to respond to my questions regarding pitch rate and temperature.

To Wyeast:
Regarding 3068, my hope is to make a nice, balanced Hefe with both a banana and clove presence. But I definitely want banana. My concern is pitching a full pack into my 3-gallon, 1.048 batch. This, I assume, would be a classic example of over-pitching and the possibility of losing all banana character.

Assuming a healthy, full-blown smack-pack is good for 5 gallons of wort, would you recommend I only pitch 60% of the pack? Less?

(I also believe that fermentation temperature is another way to manipulate esters. On the colder side of the yeast's temperature range, esters will be reduced, and clove will be more dominant. Warmer side, more esters, more banana. Mid-range, a balance of the two.)

Reply from Wyeast:
Thank you for contacting Wyeast Laboratories and regarding your questions about the banana esters, you would need to pitch 75 ml (60%) or 62.5 ml (50%) if the Activator is fresh, likewise, set the fermentation temperature in the warmer range at 72-73 degrees Fahrenheit.

Back to Wyeast:
To clarify, if I want a balance of clove and banana, I assume I would still pitch 75ml or 62.5ml but keep the fermentation temperature in the middle of the yeast’s range, say 69 degrees or so?

Reply from Wyeast:
That is correct, though since the beer planned is a hefeweizen generally the fermentation temperature is a bit higher.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Thanks for sharing this

So even with the lower pitch rate they recommend a higher fermentation temperature @Megary ?

 

[Minbari]

Yeah, as much as I'd like to try a step-mash, Hockhurz, decoction etc. to see what they bring to the table, I think I'll stick with ol' faithful 152° for 60 minutes on this first run with 3068.

I'd like to get a balance of clove and banana but I have no idea exactly how to do that. I've got this exact question sent to Wyeast and I'll let you know if they get back to me.

Honestly, i think your fermentation temps will play bigger than mash temps

 

[Megary]

Thanks for sharing this

So even with the lower pitch rate they recommend a higher fermentation temperature @Megary ?

This confused me as well and I agree their last reply reads a little ham-fisted, but I suppose they are saying that for a Hefe, esters are generally preferred. I felt pressing the question wasn't worth it.

Pitch rate was a big concern for me. I'm so used to just pitching a full blown pack in my 3 gallon batches but for a Hefe, this seems to be poor form.

From Wyeast's web site:
The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived.

Strain: 3068 for Weihenstephan Weizen | Yeast & Cultures by Wyeast Labs

 

[Minbari]

The one time i used it, i didn't do a starter and pitched it.

 

[SabreSteve]

The one time i used it, i didn't do a starter and pitched it.

Same here. I used it in a Dunkleweizen though. But used the full pouch for 5 gallons at 68F and got some nice banana that really balanced well with the flavor of the malt

 

[Donoroto]

This confused me as well and I agree their last reply reads a little ham-fisted, but I suppose they are saying that for a Hefe, esters are generally preferred. I felt pressing the question wasn't worth it.

Pitch rate was a big concern for me. I'm so used to just pitching a full blown pack in my 3 gallon batches but for a Hefe, this seems to be poor form.

From Wyeast's web site:
The balance can be manipulated towards ester production through increasing the fermentation temperature, increasing the wort density, and decreasing the pitch rate. Over pitching can result in a near complete loss of banana character. Decreasing the ester level will allow a higher clove character to be perceived.

Strain: 3068 for Weihenstephan Weizen | Yeast & Cultures by Wyeast Labs

Well, they might know, so give it a try at 72-73. Worst case, you get banana. Best cast, they are correct.