Whirlpool Additions

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by thunderwagn, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    #1 thunderwagn, Dec 31, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
    How are brewers these days calculating whirlpool additions? I typically add mine around 150-160f. The ibu's calculated seem high to me in Brewers Friend. I'm just kind of curious because I've always considered flame out hops at 0 minutes of the boil. No ibu's are calculated for that addition. I guess I'm confused as to why an even later addition at or below 180f would calculate higher? Have I been figuring wrong for the past several years using BF?

    Also, just noticed that .5 oz of cascade added at 5 minutes left on boil calculates less ibu than a .5 oz whirlpool addition at 150f.
     
  2. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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  3. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that. That is a good read and informative. Have any idea when that article was written?

    One thing that confuses me though, is why does BF calculate ibu's lower at flameout than whirlpool?
     
  4. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    It always bothers me when articles aren't dated. Luckily I have a subscription to the magazine and found it in the March-April 2013 edition after a search through my magazines.
     
  5. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    I'm very new here. Does BF provide the formulas for their utilities? I love the math behind brewing and could look into it if the formulas are available.
     
  6. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    at least the whirlpool additions show what it is on the recipe builder. Add a whirlpool hop addition and it automatically shows 10% hop utilization.
     
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  7. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    That seems reasonable. Beersmith also uses 10%.
     
  8. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    Haha, to add salt to the wound, I'm using homegrown hops so I have no idea of the aa% . I've been using them for dry hopping so I haven't really given it much thought, but I have so many in the freezer I need to start utilizing them more. Guess I'll see what happens the next few brews!
     
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  9. Head First

    Head First Well-Known Member

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    Got a few pounds of homegrown Centennial hops in the freezer I am trying to stuff into my brewing. So far what I am finding out is they don't have the IBU's of commercial. With soil additives I should be able to fix that but in the mean time I've been throwing them in in later additions. I did a few every 20 min. additions with some success, the aroma and added grapefruit tang was grreat but they do not have the bittering oils they should have. Use lots and grow more!!!
     
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  10. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    That's actually not a bad idea. Toss in a small handful every 20 or so? I'm totally guessing, but I'm sure I'm not close to the aa's typically found in commercial hops. The cascades, maybe. But pretty certain my chinook are no where near 13, but again, just guessing.
    I think I've got the hop bill adjusted ok either way. With horizon as bittering and a small cascade addition in the boil to help, I think I'll be in proper range. If all the other additions are close in guesstamations, I hope to still be in style. If not, well...I'll have a reference point...and bitter beer!
     
  11. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    At least the IBU calculator does not seem to have an option for whirlpool hops. When you put in "0" for minutes, the calculator does not add any IBU's.
     
  12. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    Neither does the recipe editor. That's kind of my point. Why 0 ibu's calculated at flame out, yet ibu's are calculated ( i think default is 10%) for whirlpool?
    I'm not real concerned, but it is something I noticed that just didn't seem to add up. I suppose there is the option to set the % to your pleasing at whirlpool/hopback if you choose.
     
  13. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    That's always been a mystery to me, too. And since FO hops would be left in during whirlpool, they'd be going along for the ride there, too. If no-chill extended boil is a factor in FO hop contribution, you'd have to consider that whirlpool would add the same amount.
    It'd be interesting to spit a batch and do only FO and only Whirlpool to see which is more bitter. I'm going to bet on the FO since it's in contact with
     
  14. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    The "flame out" hops are 0, because that assumes quick chilling. The isomerization would be very low if you turned off the flame, added those aroma hops, and chilled immediately. The temperature drop from 212 to 150 would be very quick.

    For whirlpool hops, where you hold the hops at 180 degrees (or whatever temperature you choose)for 20 minutes, you would get quite a bit more utilization.

    If you're using flame out hops and doing a hopstand, using the "whirlpool" choice for those hops as well would give a more accurate estimate of the IBUs.
     
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  15. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    #15 Johnwk, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
    But if the whirpool option is considered significant, why is that option also not included in the "IBU Calculator"? At the very least, there should be some mention, or caution, that additional consideration should be taken if one is whirpooling hops.

    The bottom line, is that "0 minutes" is quite ambiguous and could mean different things to different people (i.e. flameout and rapid cooling; flameout and slow cooling; or whirlpooling at various lower temperatures and lengths of times after flameout). Might be interesting to develop a separate IBU calculator for different options after flameout.
     
  16. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    this all confuses me. the calculator absolutely has an option for whirlpool. choose whirlpool instead of boil next to the hop addition. then it adds IBUs. Then choose your utilization factor based on what temp you whirlpool at. Forget the 0 min addition unless you aren't doing a whirlpool.
     
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  17. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    #17 Johnwk, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
    The confusion lies in the difference between the "Recipe Builder", and the separate tool - "IBU Calculator - Bitterness". This separate tool does not include the whirlpool or hopback option (the Recipe Builder actually handles it quite well) .

    See:
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/
     
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  18. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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  19. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    The bitterness i get out of an 30min 80c hopstand is negligible i find. I just recently whirlpooled 60g of 18%aa Eureka hops for half hour above 80c and i thought that beer was lacking bitterness it was reading high 40s IBU. I set my utilization at 5%.

    Mines more of a hop stand than a whirlpool to BTW with the odd stir every 5-10 minutes or so.
     
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  20. Johnwk

    Johnwk Member

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    #20 Johnwk, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    Any hopstand close to 80 C would be negligible since 80 C is about the cut-off point for isomerization. The length of time to drop from 100 C to 80 C could give additional IBU's.

    Another very simple option if only cooling is involved, is to add to the boil boil length about half the time it takes to cool to 80 C (e.g. if actual boil length of the hops is 60 minutes, and the time from flameout to 80 C is about 10 minutes, set the boil length to 60 + 1/2 time to cool to 80 C, or 60 + 5 = 65 minutes).

    The whirlpool or hopstand is more difficult to estimate since it depends on the temperature and length of time. A very simple estimate could be to add the result of the following equation to the boil length:

    ((Temp. Whirlpool in C - 80)/20) x (Length of Whirpool or Hopstand in min.)

    For example, if the whirpool was done at 85 C for 16 minutes, then add:

    (85 - 80)/20 x 16 = 4 minutes.

    Thus you would set the boil length to 64 minutes instead of 60. In addition, you would also add an estimate for the time it took to cool from 100 C to 85 C as explained above.

    Of course, this only accounts for the initial hops. Another estimate has to be added for the additional hops added after flameout. But since flavor/aroma hops are usually low alpha, it should not contribute too much in terms of additional IBU's.
     

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