What will happen?

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Krimbos, Oct 13, 2013.

  1. Krimbos

    Krimbos Member

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    At LHBS today getting grains for a simple APA. Just going to do an extract brew, throw in some hops, pitch, and plan to bottle in 7 days. (I am out of beer)

    We were talking yeast and the guy talked about pitching onto a yeast cake of a previous batch, saying it will light up in a couple of hours. Cool

    I happen to have an Oatmeal Stout fermenting. Was gonna give it another week, but now I am considering bottling in morning, and racking my APA wort on top of the old WYEAST 1335 yeast.

    I realize the colors dont match, but I am not concerned about that. I wonder what the 1335 will do to my APA?

    Is this this a bad idea? shoudl I stick to SAFALE 05?

    But it sounds like fun!
     
  2. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    From the website, looks good to me. smell it first but Id say do it


    YEAST STRAIN: 1335 | British Ale II™

    Back to Yeast Strain List

    A classic British ale profile with good flocculation and malty flavor characteristics. It will finish crisp, clean and fairly dry.

    Origin:
    Flocculation: high
    Attenuation: 73-76%
    Temperature Range: 63-75° F (17-24° C)
    Alcohol Tolerance: approximately 10% ABV

    Styles:
    American Brown Ale
    Brown Porter
    Cream Ale
    Dry Stout
    English Barleywine
    English IPA
    Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
    Foreign Extra Stout
    Irish Red Ale
    Northern English Brown Ale
    Special/Best/Premium Bitter
    Standard/Ordinary Bitter
     
  3. chessking

    chessking New Member

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    I rack on top of a yeast cake all the time. I do it for about three or four ferments, and then usually loose my nerve. The problem of course is the possibility of contamination. If your process is clean, this will work fine. Normally I plan four beers ahead so I use the proper yeast for the style. Also I plan to go from a lighter, low gravity beer to a darker high gravity beer. Some of the flavors/bitterness/color will be present in the next beer. How much the beer is effected is arguable.
    For instance I will brew a light Blonde Ale w/ WLP 001 Cal Ale yeast, followed by an American Amber, followed by an American Brown (Moose Drool Clone), followed by a Scottish Export 80/-. Then I dump the yeast and start on English beers (WLP 002 English Ale) Starting With a Mild, then a Brown , an ESB, and then a Porter. The key is to rack immediately. On the same day the carboy is emptied. Don't let the yeast sit around. If your not going to brew for a week, then collect and wash the yeast, and store it in the fridge. I brew almost every weekend so I can do this easily. If you dont brew that often, Plan to do a couple in a row, then dump it and start again when you are ready for some more.

    Also, this is important. If the beer you racked off the yeast cake is crap, Don't use the yeast!

    One of the benefits of this process is if the yeast is used immediately, it is active and abundant. I find that with the large pitch rates involved, it leads to a complete fermentation without the yeast being stressed. This is especially useful when doing Lagers where a large pitch is required and stressed induced esters are not wanted. Breweries do this all the time. They cant afford to buy yeast at the rates they need. Reusing yeast is sort of like making a big starter.

    Remember:
    Keep it clean.
    Reuse yeast immediately.
    Characteristics will transfer to some degree.
    Plan Ahead.
    Don't reuse questionable yeast.
    And remember to oxygenate the wort. The yeast has used up all the oxygen in the beer, and needs more to continue.

    Cheers!
     
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    And whatever you do, do NOT throw in a package of powdered ham glaze! :lol:

    Nice to see you back, Chess! See you November 17th.
     
  5. chessking

    chessking New Member

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    For what its worth, the Ham Glaze Brown keg kicked this week. None left. Don't know if I will ever do it again. It was fine and drinkable, but just didn't knock my dick in the dirt, ya know? Other beers have my interest now. Trying to dial in the perfect Bohemian Pilsner. Nice problem to have.
     
  6. Krimbos

    Krimbos Member

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    Great info, CK ( Brouie C.K.?)

    I was more interested in what folks thought how resulting APA would turn out.

    Gonna give it a whirl. What's the worst that can happen?

    I may boost my hops bait to counter the malty influence of the 1335?
     
  7. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Agreed on the problem, although I did want a taste of the ham glaze beer. I'm working on Christmas beers, two for a Mardi Gras themed Christmas party.
     
  8. MrBIP

    MrBIP Active Member

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    Am I understanding this correctly?
    I could brew batch 1 this weekend, primary in carboy A, rack to carboy B, at the same time brew batch 2 and put it in carboy A on top of the yeast cake left behind from batch 1?
    What about the ring of gunk left from batch 1 krausen? I would think one would not want to be poking around in there trying to clean up such things?
     
  9. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    Yep that is the reuse yeast cake procedure. I would not do that because of the gunk ring.

    What I would do is pour out the yeast cake from carboy #1, do a yeast washing procedure, and then pitch that into a fresh carboy for batch #2. Yeast washing helps separate the yeast from the trub: http://www.brewersfriend.com/2010/01/30 ... shing-101/
     
  10. Krimbos

    Krimbos Member

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    Thats what I did, gunk and all

    I dumped my APA wort into a carboy of Oatmeal Stout yeast cake (WYEAST 1335). I think I may have created an American Brown Ale.

    A krausen formed in about 4 hrs and it is chugging along now, 24 hrs later in the garage at 64F.

    I may move indoors tonight, as temp is supposed to drop into 50s

    Next time I may do as LB suggests, wash and pitch.

    On a side note, 2 weeks ago I washed the cake of a SAFALE 05 APA and stored in frig. I did not see any discernible layers. Guy at LHBS said it was because I used a dry yeast, not a liquid, and that they do not wash well.

    I made a 1 cup 1.040 wort on the stove and dumped in into flask at wort temp of 80F. Flask was room temp.
    Thing started cranking within a couple of hours (faster than my large batch)

    Another Jedi level reached...
     
  11. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Be aware that running another batch on top of a yeast cake is drastically overpitching.... Agreed with Larry - take the slurry out, wash it and use the proper amount for the next batch(es).
     
  12. Krimbos

    Krimbos Member

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  13. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    It's not particularly a good thing. Too much yeast and the cells don't develop enough and you don't get the flavors you should get. Expect a book review on the book "Yeast" on the blog in the next few weeks.... And Larry, you can hold me to that!

    Perhaps it's not the cause but I noticed a change in my beers for the worse - less flavor - when I started doing quart starters routinely. A single Wyeast smack pack is good for 4 gallons of normal wort so I do a little mental math: For a normal wort I do a pint starter. If I go over about 1.065, I'll do a quart.
     
  14. Krimbos

    Krimbos Member

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    NB

    Can you elaborate? The whole yeast thing is a mystery to me.
     
  15. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    A pint sounds about right for re-pitching yeast from a 5 gallon batch. In checking the yeast pitch calculator, I can confirm that. (Select Slurry as the yeast type.)
    http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitc ... alculator/

    Let's assume the slurry has a density of 1 billion cells / mL (the default in our calculator, though in reality it could be higher). A pint is about half a liter, so we are talking ~500B cells. For a typical 5 gallon batch at 1.048, that puts the pitch rate at 2.0M cells / mL / °P. That is on the highest end of the 'pro' pitch rate, so you could get away with half that.

    I am not sure what the upper limit is on pitch rate before it becomes harmful. Let's just say pitching 5 gallons of yeast into a 5 gallon batch, using a 7 gallon bucket is one way to make a huge mess. :lol:
     
  16. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    if you cold crash in a secondary, nothing but good clean yeast left no trub, pitch right on top of that, its about half the size too
     
  17. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

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    I wouldn't repitch yeast that had been cold crashed due to the stress. To avoid that I would rack to a secondary and cold crash or harvest yeast off the bottom with a siphon and then cold crash in the primary. I also strongly recommend harvesting yeast within 7-10 days of the original brew date. Most ales are done by then anyway, with lagers you have more time. If the yeast cake sits too long it isn't healthy for the yeast, and the next batch will be off. At the end of fermentation the yeast are in a toxic alcohol environment with no nutrients or food left to eat.

    For home brewers, reusing yeast outside those parameters is a bit of a gamble. I've had plenty of successes with repitching, but all my batches that turned out 'funky' came down to not following these guidelines.

    I've concluded it is easier and more reliable to make a fresh starter for each brew. Yeah it is $6-7 bucks for a new smack pack, and $2-3 for DME, but I like the extra insurance. Plus I get to try more strains each year.
     
  18. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't cold crash at all. You're forcing yeast that have not completed their jobs to fall out of the wort. Although it may not look like they're doing much, the yeast still in suspension are still metabolizing compounds, reducing off-flavors and creating desirable ones. I prefer to let the yeast finish and drop out on their own, once the beer is bright at secondary fermentation temperatures, I bottle. Cold crashing is merely rushing the yeast. If your yeast are done, they will fall out of suspension - they stay suspended because of CO2 production so once they stop producing it, they drop. I honestly can't think of anything cold crashing does for the beer so I don't do it.
     
  19. chessking

    chessking New Member

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    That gunk ring was also in the beer from batch #1 and that beer survived. I don't poke around, or try to clean the carboy, just dump in the wort of batch #2 and aerate well. The yeast know what they are doing. My beers are 3 to 4 weeks in primary and then get kegged and put in the fridge to carbonate. I usually don't start drinking them for 2 to 3 months later. They are crystal clear, and aged perfectly.
    If this process makes you uncomfortable, that's fine. Do what you feel is best for your beer. But I would challenge anyone who drinks my beer to find a flaw from this process.
     
  20. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    your forgetting yeast is shipped very cold and solidified already, after 10 to 14 days nothing is fermenting anyway.
    it replaced my filtering process, drops everything to the bottom but good beer

    I guess I needed to refine my statement, always bring yeast to room or recommended temperature when working with it, I didn't understand the posts, guess I forgot words are relative to the speaker lol
     

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