Thinking about changing from Electric to Gas

[RoadRoach]

I also keep things. Not to save money by not having to buy it again, but to have it in stock when I need it. Emergencies happen, and I was once a boy scout.

Never was a scout but grew up so poor I couldn't even pay attention. If I couldn't catch it, grow it, or make it, I didn't have it, whatever IT was. Learned back then to 'use it till it's wore out' and don't throw away anything if someone else might be able to use it. To think of what I have thrown away, and the number of times I needed the item or a part from it the VERY NEXT DAY, I get palpitations when I toss something that I know was working when I turned it off the last time.

 

[Minbari]

Thinking about a Stepped mash how about this as a method to adjust the mash temperature over time...

Assuming the initial mash staring point of 67C the PID to pump the hot water through the re-purposed cooling
coil so that it heats the mash to the next temperature step. Obviously a good stir is required for each step to be good
across the whole batch.

I have no idea if it will work, Any suggestions? Adjustments? Problems?

The advantage (if you can call it that ) is that the mash thickness will not be altered by the usual method of adding hot water for each step,

View attachment 23095

That is basically how I do it, just in reverse. The coil is in the HTL and I fly sparge to keep temps constant

 

[RoadRoach]

Thinking about a Stepped mash how about this as a method to adjust the mash temperature over time...

Assuming the initial mash staring point of 67C the PID to pump the hot water through the re-purposed cooling
coil so that it heats the mash to the next temperature step. Obviously a good stir is required for each step to be good
across the whole batch.

I have no idea if it will work, Any suggestions? Adjustments? Problems?

The advantage (if you can call it that ) is that the mash thickness will not be altered by the usual method of adding hot water for each step,

View attachment 23095

Are you doing this because of the plastic mash tun? That's exactly the reason I've talked myself out of one. More than once.

My take is that you're going to have a lot of heat loss in the lines between the water tank, the pump, and the IC. You'll have to insulate everything because the heat loss in those lines is going to be very significant when the pump isn't moving the water. Whether you run the wort through the hot water or the hot water through the wort, you're going to have the same dilemma, the lines will cool while the pump isn't running. If you move the wort through the IC sitting in the hot water reservoir, the wort in the IC will get too hot when the pump isn't moving it. In that case, yep, gotta control the water temperature to control the wort temperature and keep the wort moving. May as well have put the mash in that kettle in that case. Otherwise, you'll want the wort to be fairly clear, or any dust from the husks/chaff is gonna sit in that IC and brew, releasing tannins.

 

[Minbari]

Are you doing this because of the plastic mash tun? That's exactly the reason I've talked myself out of one. More than once.

My take is that you're going to have a lot of heat loss in the lines between the water tank, the pump, and the IC. You'll have to insulate everything because the heat loss in those lines is going to be very significant when the pump isn't moving the water. Whether you run the wort through the hot water or the hot water through the wort, you're going to have the same dilemma, the lines will cool while the pump isn't running. If you move the wort through the IC sitting in the hot water reservoir, the wort in the IC will get too hot when the pump isn't moving it. In that case, yep, gotta control the water temperature to control the wort temperature and keep the wort moving. May as well have put the mash in that kettle in that case. Otherwise, you'll want the wort to be fairly clear, or any dust from the husks/chaff is gonna sit in that IC and brew, releasing tannins.

I recirc continuously and heat loss is not a consideration. it holds temp within 1°F

 

[RoadRoach]

That is basically how I do it, just in reverse. The coil is in the HTL and I fly sparge to keep temps constant

If I understand you correctly, you're heating the HLT water, running the wort through the coil to warm it, and then fly sparging? The heat losses are pretty significant, aren't they? How do you prevent wort in the IC from getting too hot when the pump slows down (decreased wort flow)? Or are you controlling the HLT temperature? Both?

 

[Minbari]

If I understand you correctly, you're heating the HLT water, running the wort through the coil to warm it, and then fly sparging? The heat losses are pretty significant, aren't they? How do you prevent wort in the IC from getting too hot when the pump slows down (decreased wort flow)? Or are you controlling the HLT temperature? Both?

heat loss is insignificant, since the HTL has a heating element in it to maintain temp, it doesnt really matter. once the temps are equal between the HTL and mash kettle, very little extra heat is need to maintain it.

obviously you dont start out with cold water when you add the grain. get both the HTL and mash kettle up to strike temp first

pump rate is ussaly kept constant and HTL temp is regulated with temp controller. if you want to do step mashing, simply adjust the HTL temp and the mash will move accordingly.

 

[TetersMillBrewing]

If I understand you correctly, you're heating the HLT water, running the wort through the coil to warm it, and then fly sparging? The heat losses are pretty significant, aren't they? How do you prevent wort in the IC from getting too hot when the pump slows down (decreased wort flow)? Or are you controlling the HLT temperature? Both?

Heat loss is really dependent on the system size, flow, hose type, and so on. I keep my HLT at 157 degrees and my mash tun holds at 152 degrees. Like Minbari stated, the HTL temp is regulated, and once it is at temperature it does not take much to maintain it.

EDIT: I will also add that this is dependent on batch size. I keep my HLT tank at a lower temp for a 5 gallon batch than what I need to keep it for a 10 or 15 gallon batch.

 

[AHarper]

My thought was: The mash starts off at the normal mash temp and the lid is on the mash tun for the first stage of the step
Step Stage 2: remove the lid of mash tun, insert the coil and the PID thermometer, set the PID for stage 2 temp which will start the pump.
When the PID reaches Stage 2 temp the pump stops and stage 2 temp is maintained until required stage 3.
Set the new temp on the PID which starts the pump again and so on.

All the while the water in the HLT is maintained at the highest temp stage BY ITS OWN CONTROLLER with an extra temp added to overcome the minor losses in the CIRCULATING water system.

The idea is to heat the mash with the hot water running through the coil at stages required.

Probably a lot of faf but it may work. I don't know just thought of it earlier tonight. It's a bit like HERMS in reverses except the hot water is indirectly heating the MASH in stages.

Well it's just an idea, probably too much trouble. Does Sparging not do a similar job with an increase in mash temp as the wort is rinsed out?

I have only done step mashing once and that was one of the Quarterly brews...

 

[RoadRoach]

heat loss is insignificant, since the HTL has a heating element in it to maintain temp, it doesnt really matter. once the temps are equal between the HTL and mash kettle, very little extra heat is need to maintain it.

obviously you dont start out with cold water when you add the grain. get both the HTL and mash kettle up to strike temp first

pump rate is ussaly kept constant and HTL temp is regulated with temp controller. if you want to do step mashing, simply adjust the HTL temp and the mash will move accordingly.

OK, you are doing what I thought, then, controlling the water temp in the HLT, not really the wort. And yes, constantly moving the wort through that would certainly eventually equalize. I already had the strike temperature thing figured out. You'll still have the heat losses in the hoses, etc, but they're made up for by running the wort through the hot water continuously.

Took a minute, but yep, I got ya. That's a guaranteed no-scorch way to do it, too. Anytime you're applying extreme heat directly to the wort, there's a scorch risk. I get it. I could do the same with two kettles, using the boil kettle first as HLT, then draining it when it's time to boil, but I think I'd be just as happy with a PWM/PID on a heat source under one kettle for mash temperature control. No plastic on the hot side that way. I'm not a fan of plastic in a hot process. Dunno why and can't explain it, but I just don't like it. That's the one step (putting the wort in a holding bucket before boil) that I REALLY want to eliminate. I think I'd much rather keep it warm while I'm sparging. Again, I have no answer for that way of thinking, other than it just seems like the right thing to do. Can't do that in a plastic bucket.

My only point is that its not energy efficient to heat water to heat something else. Does it produce a higher quality product? Probably, otherwise why would the Big Boys do it that way (with steam rather than hot water)? There's too much energy loss in heat exchangers and piping if the goal is to reduce the energy costs. Thermodynamics explained that to me back in the early 80's. IIRC, Alan's original post was about reducing his energy cost in his brewing. I don't think what he has drawn there is gonna do it. I tagged on to it because it's the opposite of what I'm thinking about doing, going gas to electric. Electric is certainly a lot more controllable where you need a lot of control.

 

[RoadRoach]

My thought was: The mash starts off at the normal mash temp and the lid is on the mash tun for the first stage of the step
Step Stage 2: remove the lid of mash tun, insert the coil and the PID thermometer, set the PID for stage 2 temp which will start the pump.
When the PID reaches Stage 2 temp the pump stops and stage 2 temp is maintained until required stage 3.
Set the new temp on the PID which starts the pump again and so on.

All the while the water in the HLT is maintained at the highest temp stage BY ITS OWN CONTROLLER with an extra temp added to overcome the minor losses in the CIRCULATING water system.

The idea is to heat the mash with the hot water running through the coil at stages required.

Probably a lot of faf but it may work. I don't know just thought of it earlier tonight. It's a bit like HERMS in reverses except the hot water is indirectly heating the MASH in stages.

Well it's just an idea, probably too much trouble. Does Sparging not do a similar job with an increase in mash temp as the wort is rinsed out?

I have only done step mashing once and that was one of the Quarterly brews...

Ok, I guessed your intent right. I think, LOL. And I see you do have a separate controller for the hot water source. Yes, it'll work, but each time the pump slows down and stops, the hoses and pump are going to be cooling off. Is this a problem? Scientifically and logically, yes, realistically, probably not. I don't think you'll change the temperature that much with a short burst of cooler water. The hose from the HLT and the pump probably won't hold more than a gallon or so, obviously depending on length. Energy efficient? Not so much. How fast will it heat the wort? Not very. How important is it to get from one step temperature to the next? NO CLUE.

 

[Minbari]

My thought was: The mash starts off at the normal mash temp and the lid is on the mash tun for the first stage of the step
Step Stage 2: remove the lid of mash tun, insert the coil and the PID thermometer, set the PID for stage 2 temp which will start the pump.
When the PID reaches Stage 2 temp the pump stops and stage 2 temp is maintained until required stage 3.
Set the new temp on the PID which starts the pump again and so on.

All the while the water in the HLT is maintained at the highest temp stage BY ITS OWN CONTROLLER with an extra temp a)dded to overcome the minor losses in the CIRCULATING water system.

The idea is to heat the mash with the hot water running through the coil at stages required.

Probably a lot of faf but it may work. I don't know just thought of it earlier tonight. It's a bit like HERMS in reverses except the hot water is indirectly heating the MASH in stages.

Well it's just an idea, probably too much trouble. Does Sparging not do a similar job with an increase in mash temp as the wort is rinsed out?

I have only done step mashing once and that was one of the Quarterly brews...

only down side I can see from this is that the mash around the coil will be super hot (maybe killing the conversion enzymes) and other parts of the mash may not get hot. (without stiring) it might work exactly the same as the HERMs system as well. *shrugs*

 

[TetersMillBrewing]

My only point is that its not energy efficient to heat water to heat something else.

Although this is true, it is not a complete waste. I fly sparge using the water from my HLT. If I have all my water calcs correct, my HLT will be close to empty when I am done sparging and ready to boil. The waste is the liquid left on the grain. Since I brew indoors in my basement gas is really not an option for me, so I started with electric.

 

[Minbari]

OK, you are doing what I thought, then, controlling the water temp in the HLT, not really the wort. And yes, constantly moving the wort through that would certainly eventually equalize. I already had the strike temperature thing figured out. You'll still have the heat losses in the hoses, etc, but they're made up for by running the wort through the hot water continuously.

Took a minute, but yep, I got ya. That's a guaranteed no-scorch way to do it, too. Anytime you're applying extreme heat directly to the wort, there's a scorch risk. I get it. I could do the same with two kettles, using the boil kettle first as HLT, then draining it when it's time to boil, but I think I'd be just as happy with a PWM/PID on a heat source under one kettle for mash temperature control. No plastic on the hot side that way. I'm not a fan of plastic in a hot process. Dunno why and can't explain it, but I just don't like it. That's the one step (putting the wort in a holding bucket before boil) that I REALLY want to eliminate. I think I'd much rather keep it warm while I'm sparging. Again, I have no answer for that way of thinking, other than it just seems like the right thing to do. Can't do that in a plastic bucket.

My only point is that its not energy efficient to heat water to heat something else. Does it produce a higher quality product? Probably, otherwise why would the Big Boys do it that way (with steam rather than hot water)? There's too much energy loss in heat exchangers and piping if the goal is to reduce the energy costs. Thermodynamics explained that to me back in the early 80's. IIRC, Alan's original post was about reducing his energy cost in his brewing. I don't think what he has drawn there is gonna do it. I tagged on to it because it's the opposite of what I'm thinking about doing, going gas to electric. Electric is certainly a lot more controllable where you need a lot of control.

I am sure the efficiency of it is less than stellar, but as you said. no chance of scorching and it is easily controllable.

I dont use plastic either, same paranoia you have I am sure, lol.

the mash kettle IS my boil kettle. I simply dont turn on the heating elements while mashing., you dont have to transfer the wort either. just remove the BIAB bag, drain and boil. the HTL only functions as a HE. it does double duty as well. when the boil is finished that same HE coil cools the boil down to pitch temp by putting cool water in the HTL.

 

[RoadRoach]

I am sure the efficiency of it is less than stellar, but as you said. no chance of scorching and it is easily controllable.

I dont use plastic either, same paranoia you have I am sure, lol.

the mash kettle IS my boil kettle. I simply dont turn on the heating elements while mashing., you dont have to transfer the wort either. just remove the BIAB bag, drain and boil. the HTL only functions as a HE. it does double duty as well. when the boil is finished that same HE coil cools the boil down to pitch temp by putting cool water in the HTL.

Yes, the advantage of BIAB, no wort transfer. I have the bags, but still haven't made/found a basket for them. Definitely has to be snag free and corrosion resistant. No one seems to have any 1/8" stainless hardware cloth around here.

I could just drop the bag of spent grains in a bucket until I got boil started then, then go toss that on the compost heap while the boil is going. Would still need that bucket, but it wouldn't be holding my valuable 'pre-beer'. Not so sure the bag would be quite as easy to clean as the stainless-steel kettle, though. How often do you find yourself replacing your bags?

 

[RoadRoach]

only down side I can see from this is that the mash around the coil will be super hot (maybe killing the conversion enzymes) and other parts of the mash may not get hot. (without stiring) it might work exactly the same as the HERMs system as well. *shrugs*

I was thinking the same thing about putting the wort through the coil and allowing it to stop moving. That would certainly wipe out the enzymes at 80C, if he put the IC in the kettle and the pump behind the PID. The wort has to keep moving around the heat source, period. Convection does OK, but forced circulation is the smarter/surer way.

 

[TetersMillBrewing]

Yes, the advantage of BIAB, no wort transfer. I have the bags, but still haven't made/found a basket for them. Definitely has to be snag free and corrosion resistant. No one seems to have any 1/8" stainless hardware cloth around here.

If you are looking for stainless hardware cloth you can look up Utah Biodiesel Supply. Obviously would have to deal with shipping, but they do have a lots of custom beer brewing items. They have made me a couple of custom items in the past. I would have had it done at a local shop but no one deals with the hardware cloth here either.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Amen Minbari the element and continuous recirculation negates any negligible heat loss through hoses.

@AHarper what about your grains and the coil I rekon things are gunna get messy man.

Interesting concept but I rekon the traditional Herms or even Rims systems are tried and tested.

I stick by my all in one DIY design with element biab basket all in the kettle one element one temp controller one pump one vessel to clean up and put away at end of brew day.

Looking forward to seeing where you go with this though.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

I also keep things. Not to save money by not having to buy it again, but to have it in stock when I need it. Emergencies happen, and I was once a boy scout.

Similar to Murphy's Law is the "I'll never need that" law that states that whatever you throw away today will be needed tomorrow.

 

[RoadRoach]

Similar to Murphy's Law is the "I'll never need that" law that states that whatever you throw away today will be needed tomorrow.

"If something can't happen, it will, and at the least opportune moment."

 

[Minbari]

"You can't change the past, whatever happened happens"