Thinking about changing from Electric to Gas

I have both and brew almost exclusively on Electric. Having to go get some propane refills added a step to the brew process that I do not miss. The other thing to understand is immersion electric and induction are extremely efficient. A lot of heat from my huge Propane burner goes outside the kettle. With electric the element is in the liquid and the heat is retained and transferred. I still hold onto my burners but have not used them in several years. As others said a PID controlled electric mash is predictable as can be. Boiling is a toss up. I built a digital boil controller that gives me perfect control over the boil heat. I do miss the romance of the open flame. The other issue is brewing in a field with others does not work with electric but if you are home and have the hookups, no contest.

I think you'll find you are controlling the boil rate, not the temperature. If you are reading a higher temperature, it's because superheated steam bubbles are hitting your temperature probe, not because the liquid is hotter. The best placement for a temperature probe is where no bubbles can get to it. Hard to do in boiling liquid. Boiling occurs because the liquid flashes to steam on the bottom of the kettle (or the surface of the immersion heater) and forms bubbles that float to the surface. For that to happen, the mass of liquid must get up to the boiling point so that it can no longer cool the surface of the heating element below boiling point. The hotter the surface of the heat source, the bigger and faster the bubbles. But the liquid temperature will not go above the boiling point determined by the chemistry of the liquid and atmospheric pressure. All it can do at that point is change to gaseous state (steam), which is exactly what is happening at the point of contact with the heat source. If the surface in contact with the liquid gets below that temperature, the bubbles cease to form and boiling stops. A lower boil rate evaporates less liquid than a higher rate because less of the liquid is flashed to steam at the surface of the heat source. Basically, boiling temperature is, or it isn't. No control on it. Because the gas burner also heats the side of the pot, this will help bring the liquid mass up to boiling temperature quicker (more surface area being heated), but the side of the pot rarely achieves boiling temperature or exceeds it, so no steam flash occurs on the side of the pot. But you are correct that a lot of heat goes around the pot and is wasted.

Right or wrong, I have an aversion to immersion heaters, especially with our hard water and the risk of scorching if the element gets too hot in the wort. No different from scorching it in the pot with a propane burner, I know, but a lot of wattage can be put in a small package, and in this case more surface area is the smarter plan. I've learned to be gentle bringing wort up to boil, the hard way. But once I get it going, then I roll it to reduce to target volume as quickly as possible. Encased elements are better than exposed cal-rods, and there are certainly ways to avoid scorching with immersion elements, but I think I prefer a more even heat on a larger surface area that I can control the wattage output from. Not hard to do, really, and relatively inexpensive by simple variac control on the AC power to the heat elements. I feel like I want a hotplate with a diameter close to that of the bottom of my kettle. That's turning out to be hard to find within the price range I was hoping to meet. The only reason I can give is because I want maximum surface area so I can use less heat to do the same thing quicker without scorching. I will still get rid of the wasted heat going around the pot, albeit, that then lends to the sides of the pot being a heat sink and allowing the wort to cool against it. One of those brewing conundrums that is fun to learn from.
 
I think you'll find you are controlling the boil rate, not the temperature. If you are reading a higher temperature, it's because superheated steam bubbles are hitting your temperature probe, not because the liquid is hotter. The best placement for a temperature probe is where no bubbles can get to it. Hard to do in boiling liquid. Boiling occurs because the liquid flashes to steam on the bottom of the kettle (or the surface of the immersion heater) and forms bubbles that float to the surface. For that to happen, the mass of liquid must get up to the boiling point so that it can no longer cool the surface of the heating element below boiling point. The hotter the surface of the heat source, the bigger and faster the bubbles. But the liquid temperature will not go above the boiling point determined by the chemistry of the liquid and atmospheric pressure. All it can do at that point is change to gaseous state (steam), which is exactly what is happening at the point of contact with the heat source. If the surface in contact with the liquid gets below that temperature, the bubbles cease to form and boiling stops. A lower boil rate evaporates less liquid than a higher rate because less of the liquid is flashed to steam at the surface of the heat source. Basically, boiling temperature is, or it isn't. No control on it. Because the gas burner also heats the side of the pot, this will help bring the liquid mass up to boiling temperature quicker (more surface area being heated), but the side of the pot rarely achieves boiling temperature or exceeds it, so no steam flash occurs on the side of the pot. But you are correct that a lot of heat goes around the pot and is wasted.

Right or wrong, I have an aversion to immersion heaters, especially with our hard water and the risk of scorching if the element gets too hot in the wort. No different from scorching it in the pot with a propane burner, I know, but a lot of wattage can be put in a small package, and in this case more surface area is the smarter plan. I've learned to be gentle bringing wort up to boil, the hard way. But once I get it going, then I roll it to reduce to target volume as quickly as possible. Encased elements are better than exposed cal-rods, and there are certainly ways to avoid scorching with immersion elements, but I think I prefer a more even heat on a larger surface area that I can control the wattage output from. Not hard to do, really, and relatively inexpensive by simple variac control on the AC power to the heat elements. I feel like I want a hotplate with a diameter close to that of the bottom of my kettle. That's turning out to be hard to find within the price range I was hoping to meet. The only reason I can give is because I want maximum surface area so I can use less heat to do the same thing quicker without scorching. I will still get rid of the wasted heat going around the pot, albeit, that then lends to the sides of the pot being a heat sink and allowing the wort to cool against it. One of those brewing conundrums that is fun to learn from.
Exactly why i like the three 1500 Watt set up on mine. Spreads the heat out and they don't get as hot as a single 4500 watt would. Plus once it is boiling, i turn off 2 of the elements. 1500 watts will keep it boiling just fine
 
Exactly why i like the three 1500 Watt set up on mine. Spreads the heat out and they don't get as hot as a single 4500 watt would. Plus once it is boiling, i turn off 2 of the elements. 1500 watts will keep it boiling just fine
Do you have anything to reduce the voltage on the elements or cycle them to prevent scorching wort with high OG? Sugar burns pretty easily and tastes pretty badly. It takes a lot of motion to keep it from sticking to the elements if they’re immersed. I’m thinking another bulkhead on the bottom of the kettle for whirlpool/stirring would do as much as controlling the elements. Only needed during initial ramp up to boiling. Do you have any issues with build up on the elements?

Maybe I’m overthinking things, but I don’t want to create a new problem in the process of fixing an existing one. A picture of your kettle (inside and out) would be useful.
 
@AHarper
You'd mentioned your electricity usage on the call the other night. I did the math and found that my house consumed about 8.5 MWh in the last 12 months. Quite a bit more than I'd guessed.

Note that power here is about $0.15 per kWh.
 
Do you have anything to reduce the voltage on the elements or cycle them to prevent scorching wort with high OG? Sugar burns pretty easily and tastes pretty badly. It takes a lot of motion to keep it from sticking to the elements if they’re immersed. I’m thinking another bulkhead on the bottom of the kettle for whirlpool/stirring would do as much as controlling the elements. Only needed during initial ramp up to boiling. Do you have any issues with build up on the elements?

Maybe I’m overthinking things, but I don’t want to create a new problem in the process of fixing an existing one. A picture of your kettle (inside and out) would be useful.
Never had an issue with scorching. The rolling boil keeps it moving pretty well. There is always something on the elements, but nothing you have to scour to get off
 
Never had an issue with scorching. The rolling boil keeps it moving pretty well. There is always something on the elements, but nothing you have to scour to get off
Also depends on the type of elements your using.
I've used kettle element for you know making a coffee in the kitchen. 2400watt
20221112_201351.jpg

That thing was a wort scortch hazard and ruined a batch or two for me.
The other element was Keg King sorta heat stick elements that's 2200watt I think from memory.
20221112_201420.jpg

this was better but still I had to run it on a PWM to cool it down when mashing and if the wort was trubby or a big protine content well it would still scortch.

My current element is a 3300Watt Ultra Low Whatt density one.
20221112_201923.jpg

This I can rest the mash bag directly on without an issue it runs that cool.

Anyhow just thought I'd throw that in on this discussion.
Not that I would of listened but I wish when I was first getting into electric brewing I went straight with a ULWD element they really are designed for brewing.
Them other two were fun but troublesome most the time.
Cheers;)
 
Also depends on the type of elements your using.
I've used kettle element for you know making a coffee in the kitchen. 2400wattView attachment 23030
That thing was a wort scortch hazard and ruined a batch or two for me.
The other element was Keg King sorta heat stick elements that's 2200watt I think from memory. View attachment 23031
this was better but still I had to run it on a PWM to cool it down when mashing and if the wort was trubby or a big protine content well it would still scortch.

My current element is a 3300Watt Ultra Low Whatt density one.
View attachment 23032
This I can rest the mash bag directly on without an issue it runs that cool.

Anyhow just thought I'd throw that in on this discussion.
Not that I would of listened but I wish when I was first getting into electric brewing I went straight with a ULWD element they really are designed for brewing.
Them other two were fun but troublesome most the time.
Cheers;)
I agree. You don't want ones that are 6" long and 4500 watts. Too screaming hot. I use (3) 1500 watt units that are about 10" long or so.

I also use a HERMS setup for mashing, so no direct hear for that
 
I agree. You don't want ones that are 6" long and 4500 watts. Too screaming hot. I use (3) 1500 watt units that are about 10" long or so.

I also use a HERMS setup for mashing, so no direct hear for that

I have 4500 Watt ULWD elements and have never had a problem. I control the boil with a PID set to percentage and a steam condenser. I never have any scorching. I also use HERMS so no issue on that end.
 
Great info guys, and thanks for the photos. It might just be easier to poke a hole in the kettle and put in an immersion unit than to make up my mind about a hotplate. The only thing I don't like about that is something else in the bottom of the kettle to be in the way come cleaning time. It isn't a huge kettle, so I'd have to be careful with my element purchase. I like the BIAB technique, but that has its own set of issues as well. Bags full of soggy grain and things protruding into the kettle simply aren't going to get along. The double milling of the grain or finer gristing worries me a little about more tannins from the husks, but I don't see that being a problem in the bag unless I let the mash get too hot. Most of the issues I think will be fairly simple to overcome.

I can probably get my hands on something to control the output of an immersion element, if nothing else but a variac, or even a fixed resistor sized so that I get such a low heat, it cannot scorch. My interest is controlling mash temperature which is a crap shoot with a gas burner. Circulating has helped but also points out how much swing I'm actually getting. Way too much. I must have lit the burner at least a dozen times during mash, but only for a few minutes each time, and with the flame turned down so low it would barely stay lit. Did I mention this thing's a HUGE burner? Don't remember what made me think I needed such a huge burner, other than possibly thinking I would always need to heat up quickly. I was wrong. Excellent for boiling, not so much for temperature control. I just have to learn how to enjoy brew day a little more and stop rushing any part of the process.

End of the line, I'm thinking a hybrid system of electric mashing and gas boil. I'll have to deal with any cleanup issues that entails if I make it a permanent install in the kettle. The good part, it's all on the hot side so sanitation isn't an issue.
 
Great info guys, and thanks for the photos. It might just be easier to poke a hole in the kettle and put in an immersion unit than to make up my mind about a hotplate. The only thing I don't like about that is something else in the bottom of the kettle to be in the way come cleaning time. It isn't a huge kettle, so I'd have to be careful with my element purchase. I like the BIAB technique, but that has its own set of issues as well. Bags full of soggy grain and things protruding into the kettle simply aren't going to get along. The double milling of the grain or finer gristing worries me a little about more tannins from the husks, but I don't see that being a problem in the bag unless I let the mash get too hot. Most of the issues I think will be fairly simple to overcome.

I can probably get my hands on something to control the output of an immersion element, if nothing else but a variac, or even a fixed resistor sized so that I get such a low heat, it cannot scorch. My interest is controlling mash temperature which is a crap shoot with a gas burner. Circulating has helped but also points out how much swing I'm actually getting. Way too much. I must have lit the burner at least a dozen times during mash, but only for a few minutes each time, and with the flame turned down so low it would barely stay lit. Did I mention this thing's a HUGE burner? Don't remember what made me think I needed such a huge burner, other than possibly thinking I would always need to heat up quickly. I was wrong. Excellent for boiling, not so much for temperature control. I just have to learn how to enjoy brew day a little more and stop rushing any part of the process.

End of the line, I'm thinking a hybrid system of electric mashing and gas boil. I'll have to deal with any cleanup issues that entails if I make it a permanent install in the kettle. The good part, it's all on the hot side so sanitation isn't an issue.
Do this and make them removable.

20220527_104540.jpg
20220302_154500.jpg
 
How much you got invested in all the c-connectors and bulkhead fittings? Those ain't cheap. That must be a pretty big kettle, too. Mine is an 8 gallon Brewer's Best. Three elements might be a bit too much in my little bugger. Nice work, though. What did you use to punch the kettle? Stainless ain't the friendliest metal to work with, and I'm paranoid about buggerin' up the kettle with a punch. If the bulkheads are too large for the radius, they'll never seal properly if I get too close to the bottom. I like that rig, though. Very nice indeed. Was it you that said you're using a PID temperature controller and a PWM to control the energy output?
 
How much you got invested in all the c-connectors and bulkhead fittings? Those ain't cheap. That must be a pretty big kettle, too. Mine is an 8 gallon Brewer's Best. Three elements might be a bit too much in my little bugger. Nice work, though. What did you use to punch the kettle? Stainless ain't the friendliest metal to work with, and I'm paranoid about buggerin' up the kettle with a punch. If the bulkheads are too large for the radius, they'll never seal properly if I get too close to the bottom. I like that rig, though. Very nice indeed. Was it you that said you're using a PID temperature controller and a PWM to control the energy output?
I don't use pid on the boil, only the herms for the mash. Since i have 3 1500 watt elements, i just turn off 2 of em once it reaches a full boil.

They aren't free for sure, but not terribly expensive. About $30 per port. Put a silicon washer on the in side.
QiiMii Stainless Steel 304 Bulkhead 1.5” TC home-brew Kettle Bulkhead Compression Fitting NPT Thread https://a.co/d/7QaqYTb
QiiMii Sanitary Tri clamp 50.5mm to NPT Female Thread adaptor SS304 Tri clamp adaptor Pipe Fitting ( Thread Size: 1" NPT) https://a.co/d/cIXjPsA
DERNORD Silicone Washer Gasket Sealing O Rings Inner Diameter: 41mm / 1.6" (Pack of 2) https://a.co/d/5ozcwSg

As for cutting the stainless use this. Goes through like butter with very little burrs to clean up.
I don't remember which size exactly.

Tungsten Carbide Teeth Hole Saw (Hole Cutter) LU&MN Heavy Duty for Stainless Steel, 1-1/4'' 32mm https://a.co/d/9Xd03Wt
 
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I don't use pid on the boil, only the herms for the mash. Since i have 3 1500 watt elements, i just turn off 2 of em once it reaches a full boil.

They aren't free for sure, but not terribly expensive. About $30 per port. Put a silicon washer on the in side.
QiiMii Stainless Steel 304 Bulkhead 1.5” TC home-brew Kettle Bulkhead Compression Fitting NPT Thread https://a.co/d/7QaqYTb
QiiMii Sanitary Tri clamp 50.5mm to NPT Female Thread adaptor SS304 Tri clamp adaptor Pipe Fitting ( Thread Size: 1" NPT) https://a.co/d/cIXjPsA
DERNORD Silicone Washer Gasket Sealing O Rings Inner Diameter: 41mm / 1.6" (Pack of 2) https://a.co/d/5ozcwSg

As for cutting the stainless use this. Goes through like butter with very little burrs to clean up.
I don't remember which size exactly.

Tungsten Carbide Teeth Hole Saw (Hole Cutter) LU&MN Heavy Duty for Stainless Steel, 1-1/4'' 32mm https://a.co/d/9Xd03Wt
Thanks for all the references!
 
Overkill. Light dimmer will do

Ghaaa! Is electricity free in 'Bama?? No, don't waste power like that.

nah, a resistor would reduce wattage used, so it would save power. the problem is that a 1000+W fixed resistor would be the size of large radiator. not sure you could find a light dimmer that would control that much power

a PWM controler coupled with an SSR would work better and be alot smaller.
 
Roadie, maybe just get a second smaller gas burner to use for the mash :p
Just a T piece and a little extra gas pipe and you are done:cool:
 
Roadie, maybe just get a second smaller gas burner to use for the mash :p
Just a T piece and a little extra gas pipe and you are done:cool:
I do have a smaller burner from an old turkey frier for which my sister managed to lose the kettle, that I've been considering for a swap. I'm not quite sure how someone loses something big enough to put a whole 18 pound turkey in, but then again, I've lost my vermillion red (VERY RED) F-150 Super Crew Cab pickup with a matching contractor cap on it in a parking lot a few times. My truck's nearly the size of a fire engine and about the same color. Not what you'd call easy to hide. It ain't the age, it's the MILEage.

What I'm wanting is something I can control mashing temperature without having to constantly babysit it. That means something that replaces the heat loss of the kettle and hoses to/from the pump but doesn't overdo it.

Mashing is much akin to watching grass grow or paint dry when you're trying to control temperature manually, and a LOT more frustrating with poorly sized heat sources. I could write a book about poor decisions when acquiring equipment, but I think that's already been done. I'd much rather take a power nap or watch Boardwalk Empire than to stare at a temperature gauge and constantly tweak (or light) a burner. There's ALWAYS something to do or clean in the tractor shed, which I could get at while mashing. I'm not worried about boiling. Boiling is boiling. Three states, solid, liquid, gas. Basic physics, chemistry, and thermodynamics apply. I usually turn on some classic rock and annoy the neighbors when I'm boiling.
 

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