Suggested fixes and features

Discussion in 'Brewer's Friend Announcements' started by Yooper, Oct 4, 2019.

  1. Head First

    Head First Well-Known Member

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    Tried to print out recipe for keeping in 3 ring binder(yes old school but a permanent record) and the margin on the left is to close to the edge so holes punched are removing information. @Yooper is there a way of adjusting this? Print preview on Google chrome won't move them. Does software? Am I missing something?
     
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  2. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    We'll have to look at this. I'll let you know what I find out.
     
  3. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing BF Software Manager
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    I'm on mobile right now so can't outline steps but you should be able to save the webpage as PDF, then open the PDF in your preferred software and adjust the print margins then the software should scale the total file size down slightly to fit.

    Or take a screenshot and paste it into a word editor or image Editor and adjust the print margins.

    As a temporary solution at least.
     
  4. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    We’re working on this, as we don’t want customers to have to have a workaround for a solution. Hopefully it should be done very quickly.
     
  5. Bootsy Jankus

    Bootsy Jankus New Member

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    It's a load off my mind to know that I am not the only person to have had issues with this.
     
  6. Head First

    Head First Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, I'm really not happy they keep screwing this up. Some of the fixes have been good improvements, I like the option of narrowing the lines. I like being able to include or not. Don't like rewriting what my 3 hole punch has removed.:eek:
     
  7. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Fixes are going on beta tomorrow. And we are making a margin for your three hole punch. :)
     
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  8. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    We aren't using the post boil volume in the equation- it’s there to optionally enter and save if desired.
     
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  9. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing BF Software Manager
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    Thanks, I'll double check and see if I can replicate the issue when I get home.
     
  10. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Yes, that would be great! We've all read and re-read, and clicked and tested, and can't recreate.
     
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  11. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing BF Software Manager
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    #51 Pricelessbrewing, Oct 20, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
    Hey @Yooper ,

    Still seeing the bug on my end where Postboil gravity != batch OG, but I probably didn't give a thorough enough explanation.

    Post boil gravity should match recipe OG 99% of the time, with the exceptions of a water top off or a sugar addition being added between flameout and transfer to fermenter. Most recipes will currently show a lower post boil gravity than OG where there are volume losses at postboil.This is unrealistic.

    Right now, it appears that the post boil gravity is being calculated via

    postBoilGravityPoints = batchSize*(OGPoints)/postBoilSize
    where gravity points = (SG -1)*1000 -> 1.030 = 30 grav points

    1.066 <= 66.36 = (5 * 73)/5.5.

    Or equivalently,

    PostBoil gravity = grainWeight * grainPotential * brewhouseEfficiency / postBoilSize

    65.93 = 14 * 37 *.70 / 5.5 => 1.066

    Where in reality the post boil gravity will almost always be the same as the recipe OG, unless water is added or additional fermentables are added. Working backwards, preboil gravity is a result of concentration of sugars in the wort so the above formula works, but will have a different value than current as it should be concentrating the to be updated postboil gravity value. But postboil is not a matter of concentration but separation.

    If you take a gallon of wort out of the kettle and put it in a carboy, then put the rest of it in another carboy, the two volumes are still the same gravity. But if you added a gallon of water to the larger volume, then it will be a lower gravity, or if you add a lb of DME to one of the two carboys then it will be a higher gravity. this is the same as postboil calculation.

    The general formula should be (or similar equivalents in plato/brix/extract). Specific gravity is slightly less accurate but easier to follow.

    PostBoilGravity = ( recipeGravPoints - addedGravPoints ) * (batchSize) / ( postBoilSize - postBoilLosses).

    in the use case of no additional sugars, and no dilution they should match.

    1.073 = 73 = ( ( 73 - 0 ) * ( 5 ) / ( 5.5 - .5 )

    Another way of thinking of it is via the total gravity points method. Total batch should equal postboil total - kettle loss total.

    totalBatch = batchSize * batchOG = ( postBoilSize - kettleloss ) * postboilGrav = 73 * 5 = 365 = 73 * (5.5-.5). Note that since all the gravities are the same, it's equivalent to volume consistency 5 = 5.5 - 0.5.

    Recipe total points = 5 * 73 = 365.
    Kettle loss = 0.5 * 73 = 36.5.
    Postboil = 5.5 * 73 = 401.5. This all checks out.
    Preboil should be 401.5 / PreboilSize. ie 401.5 / 6.5 = 61.7 => 1.0617 (currently pre 1.056, post = 1.066).


    In the use case of additional sugars, postboil should be less than OG. Lets add 1lb of sugar to the recipe after the transfer. OG is now 1.082, where 9.2 SG is contributed by the 1lb of sugar according to the "OG" stat in the fermentables section.

    1.073 = 72.8 = (82 - 9.2 ) * ( 5) / ( 5.5 - .5 ). As you can see the postboil gravity did not change, but the OG is higher. This makes sense.


    In the use case of a water addition, it gets a little tricky depending on the order of operations. But if you're transferring from the kettle to your fermenter, then adding water then it should behave like so. So postboilSize = 5.5 still @ what should be the original recipe OG of ~1.073. Loss of 0.5 gallons @ 1.073, then diluting the recipe by 1 gallon.

    1.073 ~= 72.516 = (60.43 - 0 ) * ( 6) / ( 5.5 - .5 )

    Recipe total points = 6 * 60.43 = 362.58.
    Kettle loss = 0.5 * 72.516 = 36.258.
    Postboil = 5.5 * 72.516 = 398.838. This all checks out.


    In the use case of the opposite order, diluting by 1 gallon in the kettle and then losing half a gallon to kettle losses we get an identical scenario similar to the first use case as if the postboil size is 6.5 gallons and the recipe size is 6 gallons. Recipe OG is 1.060

    1.060 ~= 60= (60 - 0 ) * ( 6) / ( 6.5 - .5 ). Once again as this is a matter of separation, and not concentration/dilution, the recipe OG and the postboil SG match.

    Recipe total points = 6 * 60 = 360.
    Kettle loss = 0.5 * 60 = 30.
    Postboil = 6.5 * 60 = 390. This all checks out.
     
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  12. eheeke

    eheeke Member

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    Pricelessbrewing,

    Thank you for the very detailed explanation on the gravity calculations. I've also wondered why the Post Boil Gravity in the recipe wasn't matching my Original Gravity. In fact, both my recipe predicted pre-boil and post-boil gravities were always lower than my actuals when I brewed. With the recent BF updates causing odd things to happen with my recipes, I've started to scrutinize them more to understand what I might be doing wrong.

    As I've tried a number of different approaches, it appears to me that BF is not using the Equipment Profile in all of its calculations. It appears to use it correctly when using the Quick Water Requirements, which I use to calculate my mash water. However, as your data seems to show, the program doesn't use the equipment profile when calculating what's happening in the kettle and then what is transferred to the fermentor.

    The temporary solution I've chosen recently is to set the recipe Batch Size to KETTLE instead of Fermentor. In this way I can at least have the appropriate pre-boil and post-boil gravities, which I hit in today's brew session. I targeted to finish with 6.65 gal in the kettle. I transferred ~ 5 gal to the fermentor considering a 1.5 gal kettle trub loss, and a 0.11 gal hop absorption loss. As you illustrated above, the gravity of the 6.65 gal post-boil should be the same as the 5 gal that I transferred to my fermentor (1.057).

    Handling my recipe and Brew Session entries in this manner also confirmed that the BF program isn't fully using my equipment profile. I entered a Boil Complete volume of 6.65 gal and a Brew Day Complete of 5 gal (into fermentor). In the Wort Volume box, the program was still showing "Expected 6.65 Gallons of fermentable wort." If it had seen my equipment profile, it would have seen my 1.5 gal kettle trub loss and reduced the 6.65 gal to the appropriate 5 gal into the fermentor.

    One other side effect that I noticed was my hops utilization. When the program incorrectly predicts the lower than actual gravity pre-boil, it calculates an inflated IBU from the hops. With my Kettle approach above, I was able to better predict the higher pre and post boil gravities, which then gave me a lower IBU tally. On one recipe this lowered my predicted IBU from 78 to 53. I had to bump up my hop additions and/or boil times to achieve the IBU level I wanted.

    BF, if I'm doing something wrong, please let me know.
     
  13. Brewer #53034

    Brewer #53034 New Member

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    An "ah ha" moment for me. The equipment profile bug and pre/post OG SG problem are linked.
     
  14. Head First

    Head First Well-Known Member

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    Thanks peoples! Tested and have room for holes.
     

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