Subjectiveness of Beer Judging

[soccerdad]

I'm not trying to impress anybody but me To enter a competition I would have to go at least 60 or 70 miles .. more likely 100 to 125. And it's 2 trips to submit them and then go the judging. Just not interested. In addition, competitions here are more likely to have grade C judges than grade A judges. There are about 5 people locally - in the club - who can give me great feedback, and I use them as sounding boards. I am a better brewer for it.

For me it's like golf. When you first play you are probably not very good. The more you play and have trusted people give you tips, the better you get. With the help of trusted people I am a pretty decent brewer after 6 years. I am always hoping to get better .. and working at it. But I don't feel a need to have strangers judge my beer. Me and my trusted sounding board can do that.

The only frustrating thing is not being able to discover exactly "why" a certain off flavor appeared. It might be A, B, or C. Judges can't tell you either. They may say that you are oxidized, but only you can tell why (hopefully) and fix it.

 

[Hawkbox]

My local homebrew club ships things for members.

 

[Yooper]

I'm not trying to impress anybody but me To enter a competition I would have to go at least 60 or 70 miles .. more likely 100 to 125. And it's 2 trips to submit them and then go the judging. Just not interested. In addition, competitions here are more likely to have grade C judges than grade A judges. There are about 5 people locally - in the club - who can give me great feedback, and I use them as sounding boards. I am a better brewer for it.

For me it's like golf. When you first play you are probably not very good. The more you play and have trusted people give you tips, the better you get. With the help of trusted people I am a pretty decent brewer after 6 years. I am always hoping to get better .. and working at it. But I don't feel a need to have strangers judge my beer. Me and my trusted sounding board can do that.

The only frustrating thing is not being able to discover exactly "why" a certain off flavor appeared. It might be A, B, or C. Judges can't tell you either. They may say that you are oxidized, but only you can tell why (hopefully) and fix it.

The best competitions take mail- in (UPS) entries, and have excellent BJCP judges. We don't expect the brewers to be there- and they aren't part of the judging. So aside from sending your entries, there isn't any expectation for the brewer. In fact, the judging is 'blind'- so you would not be welcome anyway!

I judged the Indiana Brewers Cup last year (both pro and homebrew), and there were grand master IV judges present as well as mostly national judges. I think there were about 800-1000 entries (maybe more). We worked really hard to give constructive feedback, with appropriate terms for off flavors and potential fixes. Becoming a BJCP judge a number of years ago made me a much better brewer.

 

[Hawkbox]

What I'm really wishing right now is they would post the damned score sheets so I can read why I got the scores I did.
I'm pretty happy overall with the results though I think the Ginger beer should have done better but it was a first attempt.

 

[Mark D Pirate]

It'll take me years to build up enough judging points to get national ranking I should have enough to get certified ranking once we can sit the exam in September

 

[Nosybear]

What I'm really wishing right now is they would post the damned score sheets so I can read why I got the scores I did.
I'm pretty happy overall with the results though I think the Ginger beer should have done better but it was a first attempt.

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Most of the competitions I've entered provide the score sheets.

 

[Hawkbox]

The last one I entered did so I'm a bit confused by this one. A score alone is largely useless to me if I want to improve my brewing.

 

[soccerdad]

2 thoughts come to mind.

1) perhaps (from a marketing and reputation perspective), homebrew competitions could do more to let brewers know what they offer. At this point it seems like a 'pig in a poke'. Some offer only a scoresheet and it becomes a game of one up manship. Others offer solid help on what might improve your beer.

2) perhaps the brewers that like to enter competitions can use public forums like this to steer folks toward the good ones .. and conversely away from the not so good. If it is known that the competition in Podunk Utah offers nothing but a score with no commentary, then the market forces will encourage that competition to either step up or fold up

 

[Hawkbox]

Well this one is the Calgary Cowtown Yeast Wranglers competition in Alberta. I just emailed the contact on their page since it's been basically 2 weeks.

Edit: Apparently they're mailing them out...

 

[Nosybear]

2 thoughts come to mind.

1) perhaps (from a marketing and reputation perspective), homebrew competitions could do more to let brewers know what they offer. At this point it seems like a 'pig in a poke'. Some offer only a scoresheet and it becomes a game of one up manship. Others offer solid help on what might improve your beer.

2) perhaps the brewers that like to enter competitions can use public forums like this to steer folks toward the good ones .. and conversely away from the not so good. If it is known that the competition in Podunk Utah offers nothing but a score with no commentary, then the market forces will encourage that competition to either step up or fold up

As with everything, there are good competitions and bad competitions. It depends on the kind of competition - I've entered BJCP sanctioned events and scored poorly, I've done well in purely hedonistic competitions (how well does your beer taste). Ever seen a GABF score sheet? Talk about slim on info, but I digress. Both are valuable. Nailing a style gets you awards in sanctioned competitions, brewing great beer gets you awards in hedonistic competitions. And there's the "Podunk" factor where the double imperial undrinkably bitter detestably funky tripple inverse NEIPA Saison wins because the "judges" think that's what's in these days, seen that one too, when a well-made Helles is a much more difficult beer to brew.... I can't argue with any of the critiques of competitions but I can say I brew better beer because of them. Even the bad feedback is worth something because it's not someone you know whose face you can see tasting your beer.

 

[Mase]

... I can't argue with any of the critiques of competitions but I can say I brew better beer because of them. Even the bad feedback is worth something because it's not someone you know whose face you can see tasting your beer.

So even with “Gand Master” BJCP judges, as discussed in my OP, that can’t come closer than 25% concurrence on what they taste (flavor and aroma-wise), just out of curiosity, what would you honestly take from a “podunk” judged event that has described your beers flavors. Would you change your recipe because of one comment from someone that isn’t event a “Grand Master” and they can’t concur 25% of the time? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but when it comes to aromas and flavors, it seems too subjective/personal. And just out of curiosity, how has it made you a better brewer? Again, not trying to be argumentative, rather I am curious.

 

[Hawkbox]

Personally because I've been doing it for less than a year and I'm hoping to glean some value from it, if I see a consistent theme I at least have something to work with.

Plus I want to win swag.

 

[Mark D Pirate]

So even with “Gand Master” BJCP judges, as discussed in my OP, that can’t come closer than 25% concurrence on what they taste (flavor and aroma-wise), just out of curiosity, what would you honestly take from a “podunk” judged event that has described your beers flavors. Would you change your recipe because of one comment from someone that isn’t event a “Grand Master” and they can’t concur 25% of the time? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but when it comes to aromas and flavors, it seems too subjective/personal. And just out of curiosity, how has it made you a better brewer? Again, not trying to be argumentative, rather I am curious.

We actually had better qualified judges at a very small ' Podunk ' comp than we did our state cup .
Reason being its far easier to round up 6 judges than 40 who many have entered beer in their preferred styles so must recuse themselves from that flight

 

[Nosybear]

So even with “Gand Master” BJCP judges, as discussed in my OP, that can’t come closer than 25% concurrence on what they taste (flavor and aroma-wise), just out of curiosity, what would you honestly take from a “podunk” judged event that has described your beers flavors. Would you change your recipe because of one comment from someone that isn’t event a “Grand Master” and they can’t concur 25% of the time? I’m not trying to be argumentative, but when it comes to aromas and flavors, it seems too subjective/personal. And just out of curiosity, how has it made you a better brewer? Again, not trying to be argumentative, rather I am curious.

By comparing what "Podunk" judge wrote to what I actually perceive. Even if "Podunk" is wrong, it forces me to go back and evaluate my own beer again. And by the way, so far your argumentation about the 25% fall into the "n=1" trap my friends at Brulosophy so often find themselves in. You cite one observation, have you gone back and looked at others to see if the grand masters are closer? Was the observation you made an exception rather than the rule? When I've gone back and evaluated my beers after receiving feedback, I was usually able to find what the judge detected (discounting of course the newbie who finds diacetyl, astringency and acetaldehyde in the water provided to rinse your mouth between beers).

And, to agree with Hawkbox, I get a lot of swag from competitions....

 

[Mase]

By comparing what "Podunk" judge wrote to what I actually perceive. Even if "Podunk" is wrong, it forces me to go back and evaluate my own beer again. And by the way, so far your argumentation about the 25% fall into the "n=1" trap my friends at Brulosophy so often find themselves in. You cite one observation, have you gone back and looked at others to see if the grand masters are closer? Was the observation you made an exception rather than the rule? When I've gone back and evaluated my beers after receiving feedback, I was usually able to find what the judge detected (discounting of course the newbie who finds diacetyl, astringency and acetaldehyde in the water provided to rinse your mouth between beers).

And, to agree with Hawkbox, I get a lot of swag from competitions....

Admittedly, I have not gone back and reviewed previous issues, but if it happens once, it shows what can happen. To each his own, but if judging is that subjective, I’m not interested in submitting for feedback or swag... plus I get more of my own homebrew to drink which always wins gold medals by our judges... me, my wife, family and friends. But I can say this.... the latest Banana Nut Bread Ale that we just kegged.... I don’t need a judge to tell me how shitty it is.... it’s our first beer that we’ll probably dump!

 

[soccerdad]

Banana Nut Bread Ale

WTF were you thinking?

 

[Mase]

WTF were you thinking?

Was obviously having a senior moment. I told my wife when we brewed it, that this is swinging for the fences. It’ll be a home run or a bust. Well it didn’t get past the pitchers mound. I kegged it and am carbonating it to see if time will help it... I doubt it through. The only loss will be some CO2.

 

[Nosybear]

Was obviously having a senior moment. I told my wife when we brewed it, that this is swinging for the fences. It’ll be a home run or a bust. Well it didn’t get past the pitchers mound. I kegged it and am carbonating it to see if time will help it... I doubt it through. The only loss will be some CO2.

I could think of a way to make it work.... Dunkelweizen, a bit of pumpkin pie spice, some nut flavor or a "nutty" flavored grain like buckwheat, could work....

 

[Mark D Pirate]

There's only so much you can write on a judging form , how close did the scores align ?certain flavours or aromas may seem prevalent to different judges so were listed but not to say they didn't detect the others

 

[GFHomebrew]

to each his own beer is say! to each his/her own beer! if your happy with making beer and enjoying it with family and friends or wish to enter competition's for feedback on ya beer it all narrows down to finding enjoyment and happiness from the brewing hobby.