Saison

Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by Marcelo_Arantes, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. Marcelo_Arantes

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  2. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I'll put my disclaimer up front: My critique is based on the Saison style in the BJCP guidelines. As a judge, what you're brewing would not be a high-scoring Saison. But it's your beer and I'm not the style police! It may wind up delightful to you and that's the measure of a homebrew. If you like it, it's a good beer.

    Here's how the style guide describes Saison: Overall Impression: Most commonly, a pale, refreshing, highly-attenuated, moderately-bitter, moderate-strength Belgian ale with a very dry finish. Typically highly carbonated, and using non-barley cereal grains and optional spices for
    complexity, as complements the expressive yeast character that is fruity, spicy, and not overly phenolic. Less common variations include both lower-alcohol and higher-alcohol products, as well as darker versions with additional malt character.


    My take: The grist is way too complicated for a Saison. Saison is a yeast-driven style, generally consisting of Belgian Pilsner and a moment's silence for specialty malts. The Munich and wheat are okay but the rest of the stuff is going to add caramelly sweetness and color, flavors that will compete with the spicy-citrussy flavor the yeast should give you. I don't understand the honey, either. In that small an amount, you won't get any noticeable flavor contribution from it, in other words, it's just very expensive sugar. Replace it with 250 g table sugar for two reasons: One, it's very cheap compared to honey and two, Saisons should finish very dry and that's what sugar does to a beer. Why are you adding both chalk (alkali) and lactic acid to your water? Doesn't make sense to me, as they'll counteract each other, yielding lactate and carbonate precipitation (your water will turn milky). Further confusion on your salt additions, your target water profile has NO carbonate! I don't know what's going on with your priming sugar but you'll want to prime to 3.5 vols (or more!) for this style. As to hops, well, Saison is yeast-driven, lots of phenolic flavors. You're adding quite a bit of bitterness and the combination of bitter and phenolic can be quite unpleasant.

    Now go brew it and prove me wrong!
     
  3. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    Anything in particular you're looking for in your saison? It's a pretty wide target so lots of things can fit under the heading without anyone getting too upset, as long as it's the right yeast, yeast forward and pretty dry.

    Personally I'd simplify the grain bill, add some calcium chloride to balance up the gypsum and I also don't understand the chalk and table salt (but you may have a reason). But the brew it and see what you want to change is also a great appraoch.
     
  4. Marcelo_Arantes

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    #4 Marcelo_Arantes, Jan 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
    I thought the honey mainly to add spice and complexity, not to dry out the beer, but it makes sense what you said, the small amount will not help for what I want. The salts additions: I was trying to keep low level of SO4-2, and increase the level of Ca+2, add gypsum ( for Ca+2-SO4-2) and chalk (only Ca+2) the ph mash was 5,93 in the mash report, so to achieve the ph 5,4 for the mash I have to add the acid latic, to have a balanced profile water i add table salt (SO42-/Cl- ratio: 1.5 Balanced).

    I will ajust the points you said, the grist, honey, hops, for the water profile do you have a sugestion ? So I can figure out what to do.

    Thanks for the feedback!
     
  5. Marcelo_Arantes

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    The salts additions: I was trying to keep low level of SO4-2, and increase the level of Ca+2, add gypsum ( for Ca+2-SO4-2) and chalk (only Ca+2) the ph mash was 5,93 in the mash report, so to achieve the ph 5,4 for the mash I have to add the acid latic, to have a balanced profile water i add table salt (SO42-/Cl- ratio: 1.5 Balanced).

    I will add Calcium chloride to change the salts additions.

    Thanks for the feedback!
     
  6. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned earlier, lose the chalk. Make up for it with another source of calcium.
     
  7. Marcelo_Arantes

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  8. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    Seems fine to me. Supposedly Belle Saison is a difficult beast. There's heaps of advice on what to do if it stalls. The one time I used it it just calmly ate it's way down to 1.004, so I've not seen it's tempremental side.
     
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  9. Meatwad

    Meatwad Member

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    Either open ferment or use foil over your carboy or airlock grommet to discourage stalling with any Saison yeast.
     
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  10. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Belle Saison is not difficult. It's Wyeast 3724 that is the accursed beast. I think White Labs 565 is a very similar yeast. 3724 is a true bitch: Ferments straight through once, stalls at 1.024 the next time and you wait weeks for it to start up again, despite rousing and fermenting at 90+ degrees.
     
  11. Marcelo_Arantes

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    I made its last sunday, and the yeast is working lets see what will happening ... but if it stall what should i do ?
     
  12. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Keep warm rouse wait have a beer wait check with hydrometer in a few days then relax and have another HB:).

    Come on power of positive thinking man it ain't stalling on ya...
     
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  13. Meatwad

    Meatwad Member

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    Use foil over your carboy top or airlock grommet on all of your Saisons.
     
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  14. Marcelo_Arantes

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    Sorry iam late to post, but thank you guys to help me.
     

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  15. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a healthy carbonation in it true to style hope it came out as expected looks good
     
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