Porridge stout help

[Mine's an Old Peculier]

Hi,

Hoping you gurus out there can help me.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1269900/breakfast-stout-2022

I've been brewing for a couple of years as a hobby, 'kitchen top' setup.

Started off reaching about 65%-70% efficiency then was astounded as it nudged 80% as my technique got better.

Apart from the recipe above.

The bulk grain is Victory, which I understood would be ok as a base malt, but now I'm not so sure.

I've only brewed this a couple of times, and while it tastes great I'm obviously doing something wrong.

Other recipes out there don't use Victory as a base!

All comments gratefully received.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Donoroto]

The recipe looks good. The malts all have a reasonable ppg so they should convert just fine. The 68 C mash is slightly warm, and a 6.5 liter mash with a 19 l sparge seems like a little too little mash water and a little too much sparge water. But please note that my opinion is not necessarily 'educated'.

All that said, what is it about this you are concerned about? Taste, efficiency, attenuation, other??

 

[Megary]

Hi,

Hoping you gurus out there can help me.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1269900/breakfast-stout-2022

I've been brewing for a couple of years as a hobby, 'kitchen top' setup.

Started off reaching about 65%-70% efficiency then was astounded as it nudged 80% as my technique got better.

Apart from the recipe above.

The bulk grain is Victory, which I understood would be ok as a base malt, but now I'm not so sure.

I've only brewed this a couple of times, and while it tastes great I'm obviously doing something wrong.

Other recipes out there don't use Victory as a base!

All comments gratefully received.

Thanks,

Mike

If you are talking about Briess Victory malt, it is not a base malt. Briess considers it a Roasted Malt and gives a recommended usage of anywhere from 5-10% of the grain bill. It is used to add some nutty/bready/biscuity characteristics.

 

[Minbari]

If you are talking about Briess Victory malt, it is not a base malt. Briess considers it a Roasted Malt and gives a recommended usage of anywhere from 5-10% of the grain bill. It is used to add some nutty/bready/biscuity characteristics.

Agreed, this is a specialty malt. There is no rule saying you can't use it that way, but it will be an experiment for sure lol

 

[Mine's an Old Peculier]

Hi guys, thanks for the reply.

Ooops. Not Victory, Imperial. Damn. Simpsons Imperial. It's a highly kilned malt, but Simpsons recon you could use up to 80%.

But I take your point: It's not a base malt.

 

[Mine's an Old Peculier]

The recipe looks good. The malts all have a reasonable ppg so they should convert just fine. The 68 C mash is slightly warm, and a 6.5 liter mash with a 19 l sparge seems like a little too little mash water and a little too much sparge water. But please note that my opinion is not necessarily 'educated'.

All that said, what is it about this you are concerned about? Taste, efficiency, attenuation, other??

I'm not getting a good conversion efficiency. According to Brewer'sFriend the strength should be about 4.9%, but I'm lucky to get 3%.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense to use a proper base malt.

 

[Minbari]

As long as daistatic power is good. It will convert. You may have to play with temp and time though.

Check it with the iodine test for a few batches to see if it is converting properly

 

[Donoroto]

I'm not getting a good conversion efficiency. According to Brewer'sFriend the strength should be about 4.9%, but I'm lucky to get 3%.

The more I think about it the more it makes sense to use a proper base malt.

Ah, right. Yes, that's the right track then.

Increasing attenuation comes from more yeast (but you have plenty!), more-fermentable grains (as you said a 'proper' one), mashing closer to 60C (140F) and fermenting near the warmer range of the yeast.

I also have some batches that don't attenuate as expected. I've just accepted it if it tastes fine, and I have also added alcohol (vodka/grain spirit) to bring the ABV up a percent or so. Cheating, perhaps, but it worked.

You can also try my method: Curse at the damned thing until it feels threatened enough to ferment a little more.

 

[Mine's an Old Peculier]

As long as daistatic power is good. It will convert. You may have to play with temp and time though.

Check it with the iodine test for a few batches to see if it is converting properly

Some good ideas. From yourself and Mr. Donoroto.

Maybe try a lower temp.I was trying not to make it too dry. And some cursing, although the curses I've spouted up to now haven't had much effect.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Hi guys, thanks for the reply.

Ooops. Not Victory, Imperial. Damn. Simpsons Imperial. It's a highly kilned malt, but Simpsons recon you could use up to 80%.

But I take your point: It's not a base malt.

I've used this Imperial malt I bought it on description as a specially malt that will increase that malt flavour described as intense malty.
https://www.simpsonsmalt.co.uk/our-malts/imperial-malt/
Read up on the imperial I see wow 80% in stouts well your call I think where you got it 50% will be interesting

I use it in a blonde ale and I'm sure one of my Dark Milds in small amounts using it like an amped up Munich style malt to provide that malt sweetness you want in beers that need that little extra body.

60 mins i a big extension on your no chill setting mate.
I'll set mine to 20mins in winter 30 in summer this reflects what the calc is predicting on ibus to my pallet.

Looking forward to how you get on.
Though about upping the oats? Like 20% (would be a tricky mash though).

 

[Mine's an Old Peculier]

60 mins i a big extension on your no chill setting mate.
I'll set mine to 20mins in winter 30 in summer this reflects what the calc is predicting on ibus to my pallet.

Well the 60 minute hops are in a basket, taken out at flame out. The extended time is just to get a little more aroma from the second hops. I don't know if this makes much difference. still learning all this you see.

Imperial in a blonde? sounds interesting. I tried out a Vienna lager last year. That was good, I wonder how that would benefit from some Imperial?

I noticed that the Brewer's Friend decreases the projected ABV if I take the oats out. Is that because of what sugars are in the oats?

 

[Minbari]

Most aroma in hops will be gotten in 10 minutes. I don't see a need for that long after flameout

There is some of but should not have much effect.

 

[Donoroto]

I noticed that the Brewer's Friend decreases the projected ABV if I take the oats out. Is that because of what sugars are in the oats?

Yes, Oats have fermentable sugars. Shouldn't decrease by much though, only 1/4 pound.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Well the 60 minute hops are in a basket, taken out at flame out. The extended time is just to get a little more aroma from the second hops. I don't know if this makes much difference. still learning all this you see.

Imperial in a blonde? sounds interesting. I tried out a Vienna lager last year. That was good, I wonder how that would benefit from some Imperial?

I noticed that the Brewer's Friend decreases the projected ABV if I take the oats out. Is that because of what sugars are in the oats?

Yeah so in no chill brewing the (extended boil time) is the time it takes your wort to fall below isomorisation levels .
The theory is around the 80°c mark.
So the alpha acids in the hops are converted into bittering compounds at temperature in the wort above 80c .

So monitoring my kettle temp after flame out I've found usually 20-30 mins it doesn't take long for hot boiling liquid to drop off in temperature it's the below 50c mark where you need youse more energy to get that cooling down.

Yup oats have starches or long chain carbohydrates that the Amylase enzymes "chop up" and convert them into consumable sugars for the brewers yeast.

So anything with starches and carbohydrates can be used wheat barley sorghum rye rice millet oats ect ect cool aye.

Enjoy your brewing mate.

 

[Mine's an Old Peculier]

Hello folks,

Not ready to launch another Porridge stout yet, but this thread gives some interesting thoughts.

It suggests that Brewers Friend distorts the predicted abv when there are a lot of dark malts in the recipe.

When Winter's over, I'll have to experiment...

 

[Mark Farrall]

Problem with the first post is confusing diastatic power (the amount of enzymes) with PPG (the amount of sugar). Dark malts have no diastatic power, but they certainly have sugar. That's pointed out and covered in the next few posts.

Then someone talks about overestimating the fermentability of the dark malts for lower ABV beers. Fermentability is more a function of mashing and BF definitely assumes an average fermentability. So that could cause problems. There are some studies into the fermentability of darker malts and some of the compounds created by the roasting will decrease the yeast's ability to function.

If I hit this problem regularly for a recipe, I adjust the yeast attenuation down. Though it's just one recipe I do this on, a black IPA. For the higher ABV black beers (above 8%) I reduce the efficiency, as my mashing isn't as successful. I don't brew a lot of black beers below 5%, though I do a 4% Schwarzbier regularly and haven't had any problems with the default predictions.

I definitely spent a bunch of years complaining to myself that BF predictions didn't work for dark beers. But with better mashing practices, yeast preparation and adjusting efficiency for higher gravity I'm not really having those problems anymore. Maybe the recipe builder has fixed something, but I think it's more to do with me.

The last point in that thread captures things well:

BF and any other software merely automates a few simple calculations. There's a large degree of 'your millage may vary' in every brewers process and ingredients too complex for it to account for.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I assume any flaked adjunct is non-fermentable when calculating alcohol.
The last dark beer I brewed, I used Maris Otter as a base. My last recipe used it at 61%. I cheat with my darker beers and use a fair amount of Munich 1 to give it some maltiness. I used 13.5% in my last dark beer. I used just under 4% Crystal 120, just under 8% Chocolate 350, and just under 10% flaked oats. I cheat again by using a little bit of white wheat for head retention.
There are a number of things you can do differently, but anything I have made with Maris Otter as a base has been good.
Most people are going to use roasted barley for a Porter or Stout to get it dark.

 

[Minbari]

I think that is about right. If they are fermentable, it's not much.

I do that too, lol. If it works, it works

 

[Mark Farrall]

I thought flaking doesn't change the fermentability much. It's just does the gelatinising for you, don't have to heat it to a temperature above mashing in a separate pot before adding it to the mash. If the grain had any diastatic power, I imagine it kills the enzymes though.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I learned my lesson the hard way. I was using the BrewSmith calculations, and I didn't change the flaked oats to "non-fermentable" even though a very smart person at the brew store told me to. It resulted in a 4.8% beer. It wasn't what I intended, but it was damn tasty, light, and very sessionable. Everyone that tried it, liked it.
Even though it was a good mistake, something like that makes you think that something went wrong when it didn't. So, lesson to newbies, set your flaked adjuncts to "non-fermentable".
I did just that with my Pre Pro for the flaked corn. My calculations were dead on - a perfect for what I wanted 5.6%.