Mash calculator, total water

Discussion in 'Feature Requests' started by oliver, Oct 26, 2020.

  1. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    This might be too individualistic of a request... Can we add calculated Total Water Volume in the mash calculator page, placed underneath the Infusion Table? https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

    Reasoning, doing BIAB Step Mashing, and trying to bring my final boiling infusion up to full volume to avoid any kind of sparging. It's a guess and check for me, so I'm trying to distribute out the total water in my steps from 105, 140, and 150 without having to math it out on the side. I like the mash calculator instantaneously tells me you'll need eg. 4.3qt boiling, but it's easy to overshoot volume needed on a BIAB no sparge without getting that initial strike water volume. I hope that makes sense?
     
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  2. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    alternatively, i tried making it in a spreadsheet if some one wants to check my math..this all just to tell me if i'm using the right amount of total water because I don't do sparge.

    I used the standard blending equation..
    ((Temperature 1 * Volume 1)+(Boiling * Volume 2)) / (Volume 1 + Volume 2),
    and to find my new temp, I use the volume of quarts as the variable in my spreadsheet with the total volume below to know if i'm under or over what I need.

    But then my results were off from Brewer's Friend because I think it takes grain weight into consideration.

    So then I looked at Palmer equation found here: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/the-methods-of-mashing/calculations-for-boiling-water-additions
    and as I understand...
    (((Target Temperature–Current Temp) * ((0.2 * Grain Weight) + Current Total Mash Volume))) / (Actual infusion temp – Target Temperature)
    So in that equation he's using 0.2*Grain Weight as a constant, I think I'm still off in my spreadsheet as how to incorporate the 0.2 constant number into the blending equation. In my spreadsheet I just did the entire blending equation, and then at the end subtracted (0.2*grain weight) to compensate for grain, but I could be totally off.

    attached a screenshot from a 2.5 gallon batch i'm planning soon to see if i'm even remotely close.
     

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  3. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    This is on the to-do list! I'll add this forum thread to that ticket to followup as it gets tested, and released.
     
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  4. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I've been doing full volume mashes for my smaller (under 7 gallon) batches as well, and I'm looking forward to this release!
     
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  5. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    7 gallons being a "smaller" batch...
     
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  6. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    Adding on to this thread, I know there is no decoction feature on the site, but in the recipe editor and within the mash guidelines, if I select Decoction from type, and enter its volume, it adds that amount to the total volume of water needed.

    Can there be a feature if set to decoction, the volume input doesn't contribute to the total volume? See screenshot, I'm making a 2.5 gallon batch, aiming for using 3.625 gallons full volume strike water, but because of decoction volumes, it thinks I'm trying to use 6.46 gallons of water.
     

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  7. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    This will be resolved in the upcoming mash guidelines update.

    Do you decoct often, I've never done it personally so might have a few questions or testing to run by you once it's ready for public testing.
     
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  8. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    Yeah let me know, I've done two decoction beers thus far, and plan on 4 more triples this march. I have a decoction spreadsheet calculator I can send you, gives you decoction volumes needed for each rest temp, and calculates boil off rate for each decoction which tells you how much water needed for full volume or estimates how much total sparge needed.
     
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  9. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I can probably provide some input - several decoctions on my German beers.... The problem is going to be there are so many decoction profiles out there ranging from single, Hochkurz, double, triple.... You can probably get by with two entries, thick decoction and thin decoction, each a fraction of the total mash. You'll need step temperature, step time, and boil time - you can pull boil temperature from the profile (altitude or temperature entered). And then you have boil-off of the decoction.... It's complex!
     
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  10. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    @oliver
    Oddly, @Pricelessbrewing and I (and a developer) just had a Zoom call Saturday about this very thing! Well, other things too, relating to mash guidelines but I mentioned that we do have users that do decoctions and/or step mashes, even if it’s just decocting to mash out temperatures.
    Like @Nosybear I’ve done several different version from single, double, triple, but usually I do either a Hochkurz or a single to mashout. One thing that we should note is that for most decoctions, you’ll pull the thickest part of the mash to avoid denaturing the enzymes, but for a mashout decoction, you’d pull a much thinner sample because at that point you DO want to halt the enzymatic activity.

    A somewhat humorous aside:
    I do have to mention this- I’ve typed this on my iPad and with autocorrect, decoctions was changed to “decorations”, “denaturing” to something incomprehensible, and so even though it barely makes sense when correct it was hilariously bad with autocorrect!
     
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  11. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    here's a screenshot of my spreadsheet I use, if anyone wants it, message me your email and I can send it as a numbers or excel file.

    Also if I'm missing anything or if I screwed up any equations, please point them out and let me know where this can be more accurate.
     

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  12. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    Some personal input into decoctions.. Just did a triple this morning. And I did some slightly longer decoction boils to see how much I can darken the final color of the beer. Well, the longer you boil the decoction, the less volume you can infuse, and thus can't hit your desired temperature.

    eg. I pull 4 quarts from the mash tun, boil it for 20 minutes, i've now lost (on my system), 1 quart. So the theoretical calculation is something like, start at 123ºF, pull 4 quarts, boil for 20 minutes, reinfuse and step it to 145ºF... However, I'm not actually infusing 4 quarts, I'm infusing 3 quarts, so I'll only be able to get to 140ºF. Need to think about how to add this to my spreadsheet calculator, but it should be fairly simple? Just account for boil rate and losses when calculating infusion volume.
     
  13. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    I think this is right, if some one can confirm or correct my mathing.

    Decoction Volume = (Total Mash Volume x (Target Temp – Start Temp ) / (Boil Temp – Start Temp)) + (Decoction Boil Time x Boil Rate)
     
  14. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    I’ve never noticed having a big loss in the volume- but I don’t think I’ve boiled that long I guess. Since there is very little liquid in the pulled decoction (except for the mash out decoction), just enough to boil without the grain scorching, I really haven’t noticed any decreased volume that would make a difference. Losing 25% at every decoction seems excessive to me- how thick is this decoction when you’re done?
     
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  15. oliver

    oliver Well-Known Member

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    2.5 gallon batch, started with 14.5 quarts water aiming for 12 quart boil size.

    I did a 5 minute boil, a 10 minute boil, and then a 15 minute boil yesterday on this triple decocted bock.

    Dough in at 104ºF,
    pulled 2.73 quarts, about 80% grain just from looking at my measuring cups.. Boiled for 5 minutes,
    Stepped it perfectly to 124ºF.
    pulled 4.38 quarts, seemed like more grain on this one, boiled for 10 minutes.
    Stepped it perfectly again to 145ºF.
    pulled 3.6 quarts, i'd say this one was more like 60-70% grains, boiled for 15 minutes.
    looking at it, I lost a lot of temperature on this round, after pulling this decoction the mash tun went down to 138ºF.
    So that infusion only got me to 153, aiming for 158-160.

    The math:
    I pull 3.6 quarts, my boil rate is 0.05 qt / minute, which means in the 15 minutes I boiled, I lose 0.75 quarts.. 3.6–0.75= 2.85 qt infusion back in. So my mash tun volume should have been at that point, based on previous decoction boil offs and the amount pulled currently in the kettle, 10.15 quarts.
    blending equation
    ((10.15qt*138ºF)+(2.85qt*212ºF))/13qt = 154ºF ... where as if the final decoction had been a 5 minute boil, I'd be reinfusing 3.35 quarts... ((10.15*138)+(3.35*212))/13 = 162ºF, where I wanted it to be in that Alpha spot.

    I think boil time of decoction needs to be taken into account, I was attempting to make a Helles less pale and more gold in color by letting my roux cook a little longer.
     
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