Maris Otter Small Ale

Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by dubhelix, May 3, 2018.

  1. Blackmuse

    Blackmuse Active Member

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    Well then, it just might be worth another go. . If it falls short a second time then it probably isn't worth a third shot.
     
  2. KC

    KC Active Member

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    All my boils are 30-40 minutes. Usually lid on. I only really boil for hot break and sanitizing. That can be done in 10-15 mins. You get more maillards and darker color the longer it stays that hot.

    From my experience, DMS has not been a problem even with pilsner malt. Its boiling point is 90°F and is driven off at kiln and mash temps as it forms from SMM. At large scale breweries, it's easier to get trapped in the high volume, low surface area tuns, kettles, and conicals. The physics are simpler at homebrewing's smaller scale.

    If you're paranoid about DMS then you won't want to do a no-boil with pilsner or pale malts.
     
  3. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    So is DMS a myth that we're being paranoid about? I'd be happy to kick 30 minutes off my brew day, but I can't shake the notion that a long boil makes better beer. May need to be doing some split boils to test the hypothesis. :)
     
  4. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I use a pretty standard 90 minute boil. 60 when I don't have a reason to do 90. 45 seems to be the standard at the local brewery. I suppose I could try some shorter boils in my 3-gallon batches but I've picked up DMS in some beers on Homebrew Night - not the kind of thing I want to drink much of....
     
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  5. okoncentrerad

    okoncentrerad Active Member

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    Perhaps old news, but of course someone else already done it...
     
  6. ChicoBrewer

    ChicoBrewer Well-Known Member

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    Being a rookie I probably shouldn't chime in but having made a batch that tasted like cream corn I don't know why I would want to knock of a half hour just to chance it. These things are likely not repeatable enough to make a worthwhile experiment unless you did the same one multiple times. There are too many variables in the ingredients. In a half hour I could make sammiches and enjoy lunch with my lover girl or watch an inning or two or play frizbee with my dog pals. What's the rush lol.
     
  7. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    You just described why I take Brulosophy experiments "upending" centuries of brewing knowledge with a single test a little less than seriously. Give it a few repetitions, then I'll start to take notice.
     
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  8. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    Yeah...it's an interesting concept but bottom line is that I won't actually ever be boiling less than 90 minutes for beers with Pilsner...and I use Pilsner in just about every beer I make.
    I've managed to consistently turn out very well-recieved beers and become fairly well thought-of within my local brewing community and part of that success is finding something that works and sticking with it. I'm not eager to trade 30 minutes time for a chance on getting off-flavors. It's a no-brainer. ;)
     
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  9. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Now that I'm doing brews on the induction cooktop, the entire 90 minutes costs less than a dollar in electricity, even less if you count the solar panels on the roof doing their thing. I'm with JA - no need to risk creamed-corn flavored beer over a few cents worth of electricity and 30 minutes.
     
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  10. okoncentrerad

    okoncentrerad Active Member

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    Maybe we're drifting off topic now :D but actually I think the goal of their short & shoddy brews is just that, to get it into repitition and combine some of their experiments in to same brews...short mashes, short boils etc.
     
  11. KC

    KC Active Member

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    For my ingredients and brewing steps at least it's a myth. Different barley strains have different SMM levels, and different malt processes vaporize DMM at different amounts. What I've read from anyone with a malting background says any malt pale and darker lose it all during kilning. Then even with pilsner, the low boiling point of DMS drives itself off quickly after conversion at homebrew scale.

    http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Dimethyl_Sulfide#Short_Boils_and_Raw_Ale

    The 60 minute boil duration seems to be derived primarily from hop utilization. Below 60 and there's a lot of non-isomerized and unutilized acids. Longer than 60 and you don't get much more out of it. There's no harm in brewing longer for peace of mind - only that the wort gets a little darker.
     
  12. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    There's lots more science if you read down the article farther such as the half-life of SMM at varying temperatures and the DMS contribution of various boils, open and closed. Looking at those tables, 60 minutes is simply risk reduction - the risk of DMS in a brew approaches zero at 60 minutes of boiling. That is not to say that a short boil will inevitably produce a cabbage-flavored beer or that a long boil won't, it's the odds. I also note that the paragraph cited speaks of anecdotal evidence. The longer boil costs me a few cents and a half-hour but mitigates the risk of DMS in my beer - it ain't a nice flavor, folks. Also, people have varying sensitivities to it. I've detected DMS in beers that brewers were absolutely proud of and believed were flawless. I tasted garlic juice. That's why I'll take the measures of micrograms per liter over anecdotes, the measurements are unbiased and are not blind to the taste of DMS. If DMS is indetectable by chemists' equipment after a 60 minute boil and uncovered cooling, guess how long I'm boiling. I don't want to risk my beer.
     
  13. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    Looks like DMS is also created/retained in the wort in the cooling phase of the brew too as per the above link. makes me wonder about whirlpooling at 80c for half hour may also be increasing potential risk of increased DMS flavour but then again most worts are composed more of ale malt in whirlpooled brews? I dont think i can easily percieve DMS in beer my recent brew was a short 40min boiled 20min (covered) whirlpooled half pils half ale grist brew and im not getting a heap of cabbage but will be sure to check on it when i get back.

    Interesting stuff though i usually boil for 60 but every now and again i opt for a shorter boil in future ill consider it more.
     
  14. J A

    J A Well-Known Member

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    I think the point is that dimethyl sulfide precursors (s-methylmethionine), not DMS are what you are or are not driving off in the boil. SMM may or may not be present in high amounts in the malt, It may or may not be driven off completely during the boil. DMS may or may not form from the amount of SMM that's left. Conditions have to be right for it to form in an amount above the threshold of flavor perception. A short boil doesn't guarantee cabbage beer and a long boil doesn't guarantee that it'll be clean. Some wild yeasts and bacteria produce DMS too, so infection may be a more common cause for DMS or DMS-like symptoms in homebrew than problems with boil length.

    A thing that I notice is that when I first start a vigorous boil, I really notice the creamed corn smell coming off the pot. After 15 or 20 minutes it pretty much goes away completely. That tells me that most of the work is being done relatively quickly. I always boil very vigorously and I'm nearly certain that I could get by with a shorter boil. I suspect it's likely that just simmering instead of a hard boil is probably more likely to cause problems, even if done for a long time. I like the odds better when I'm stacking the deck with a long, vigorous boil.

    To each his own on this one, for sure. The first time I left the lid on a pot of spent grain overnight and went to clean it out the next morning, I was met with a nasty cabbage smell that I don't ever want to experience while drinking a beer. ;)
     
  15. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Your experience matches the science.... :) The half-life tables indicate pretty much what you said, that most of the SMM is driven off early. Local brew pub, though, still boils everything 90 minutes.
     
  16. KC

    KC Active Member

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    It is DMS. SMM decays gradually into DMS over 175°F, and DMS boils at 90ºF. The relevant function of a long boil is to convert as much of the SMM as possible (when present), and drive off the resulting DMS effectively with a rapid boil.

    What I see of the science is that 1) if the malt you're using contains a significant amount of SMM that 2) it begins degrading to DMS at mashout and continues through the boil until cooled to 170F while 3) the DMS volatizes throughout that whole schedule down to 122°F of the cooling cycle, after conversion has stopped. But nobody has to copy me, there's no harm in long boils to cover any risk.

    My hunch (with nothing to support it) is that DMS detected in finished beer is more a result of DMSO conversion, the result of yeast, enzymes, and/or bacterial infection. In this case, the boil won't prevent it.
     
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  17. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    DMSO is likely the nastiness JA mentioned above. DMS is different. Creamed corn, but not in any way you'd want to eat from your plate. Cabbage, but not like my mom's delicious cabbage stew. I've even picked up garlic, although that could be lightstruck or old hops.
     
  18. BoomerBrian

    BoomerBrian Active Member

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    Nothing wrong with challenging tradition. They are doing a great job figuring out what is and isn't important at the home brew scale.

    We are already seeing breweries cutting time off and bucking tradition. Only reason they aren't pushing the limits even further is they have a significant investment in a batch and can't chance it.
     
  19. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    Spomeone has to challenge convention or we'll never learn. I'm tempted to try shorter boils but I don't want to recalculate all my recipes to factor it in. I might actually make a recipe specifically for it, and then do it a bunch of times to get good to make Nosy happy. ;)
     
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  20. Ozarks Mountain Brew

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    Ive done short boils with extract but never all grain
     

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