Liquoring Back

[Steve SPF]

Amen and if I understand the commercial side of selling grog right you gotta be pretty stringent on getting your OG just right and your final ABV spot on.

@Steve SPF you have to provide data to the brew Authorities on this right?

So I can see where watering down to hit desired OG or final ABV could be quite common.

Yes. There's a duty return monthly and lab testing at least annualy for each beer. The 0.5% tolerance is really helpful on my scale but it's a loophole that the big brewers can exploit as well.

There was a court case a few years ago with Coors. They brew Carling to 3.6% and label it as 4% over here and get away with it because of the 0.5% tolerance.

The numbers involved are massive. When Heineken dropped the ABV of John Smiths from 3.8% to 3.6% it put £6.6m straight onto their bottom line in duty savings. They've just done it with Fosters too, 4.0% down to 3.7%.

The weird aspect of that cynicism - at least to me - is that we don't punish the brand for it. Heineken will take away 8% of the ABV, hike the price by 13%, and still be the second best selling lager in the country this year. I guess as a consuming public we get the beers we deserve...

 

[Steve SPF]

Quick Update:

Brewday went well, an extra 20lt of water went into the fermenter and the beer hit all its numbers. It fermented out fine, no infections, no real problems.

The finished product is on the bar now and, for me, it tastes a bit thin. It's a 3.6% mild but usually really full flavoured and a very nice beer. This one not so much. I'll check it again this afternoon but I don't think it's as simple as topping up for volume and retaining everything of the beer.

 

[Minbari]

Quick Update:

Brewday went well, an extra 20lt of water went into the fermenter and the beer hit all its numbers. It fermented out fine, no infections, no real problems.

The finished product is on the bar now and, for me, it tastes a bit thin. It's a 3.6% mild but usually really full flavoured and a very nice beer. This one not so much. I'll check it again this afternoon but I don't think it's as simple as topping up for volume and retaining everything of the beer.

I guess it might depend how far off you are. If your target is 1.045 and you hit 1.053. a little water will fix it.

How big was this batch?

 

[Zambi]

I'm surprised.
Could it be mash thickness?

I've actually gone to a 50 % top up (500 ml water to 1 litre wort) and not tasted a difference. But I biab and only do small batches.

I suppose you are going to have to do 2 batches for a proper comparison.
1 "normal", 1 diluted.
And you gotta do a blind taste test.
I'll volunteer to do some tasting

 

[Steve SPF]

I guess it might depend how far off you are. If your target is 1.045 and you hit 1.053. a little water will fix it.

How big was this batch?

It isn't to fix a problem, just looking for more volume from existing kit. Usual batch size yields 60lt and I'm looking for 80lt so going into the fermenter there might be 70lt topped up to 90lt.

 

[Steve SPF]

I'm surprised.
Could it be mash thickness?

I've actually gone to a 50 % top up (500 ml water to 1 litre wort) and not tasted a difference. But I biab and only do small batches.

I suppose you are going to have to do 2 batches for a proper comparison.
1 "normal", 1 diluted.
And you gotta do a blind taste test.
I'll volunteer to do some tasting

Well, side by side isn't going to happen so I'm going to have to rely on myself and my fading/jaded memory

The thought about mash thickness is interesting. I spoke briefly to my brewing guru pal last night and he tells me that it's a mouthfeel issue that the brewing industry is very aware of and the cure is usually to mash at higher temps.

More research needed. I'll test the beer again today and see.

It could also be that I'm being extra critical, I'm expecting problems so am going looking for them. Not sure yet.

 

[Steve SPF]

Definitely a bit thin. It looks really well and keeps its head but lacks some body and mouthfeel for sure

 

[Minbari]

It isn't to fix a problem, just looking for more volume from existing kit. Usual batch size yields 60lt and I'm looking for 80lt so going into the fermenter there might be 70lt topped up to 90lt.

That is not a reason to add water. As you found out, it just waters down the product. 20L is more than 5 gallons. That would bring your FG down ~15 pts

 

[Steve SPF]

That is not a reason to add water. As you found out, it just waters down the product. 20L is more than 5 gallons. That would bring your FG down ~15 pts

Am I being dumb here?

I'm not looking for reasons to or not to, it's a technique that's used very widely in the brewing industry. Brew over, liquor back to desired outcome. Volume brewers liquor post ermentation - usually at packaging. That's part of the reason why so many commercial beers and ciders taste so thin.

This was pre-fermentation, an exercise to see if liquoring back into the fermenter before pitching would have any impact on the beer. It did. That's what the discussion is about. It wasn't an accident, it was designed in.

It really doesn't matter how many points it brought the FG down, how could I possibly know that?? It brought the original gravity down to exactly where I wanted it to be.

 

[Minbari]

Am I being dumb here?

I'm not looking for reasons to or not to, it's a technique that's used very widely in the brewing industry. Brew over, liquor back to desired outcome. Volume brewers liquor post ermentation - usually at packaging. That's part of the reason why so many commercial beers and ciders taste so thin.

This was pre-fermentation, an exercise to see if liquoring back into the fermenter before pitching would have any impact on the beer. It did. That's what the discussion is about. It wasn't an accident, it was designed in.

It really doesn't matter how many points it brought the FG down, how could I possibly know that?? It brought the original gravity down to exactly where I wanted it to be.

If it brought it down from too high to the correct FG, then yes. It should have worked. I also do that on every batch. (I boil 4.5 gallons to avoid boil over, then top up)

But taking proper product and watering down won't work well

Maybe i misunderstood what your goal was.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Am I being dumb here?

I'm not looking for reasons to or not to, it's a technique that's used very widely in the brewing industry. Brew over, liquor back to desired outcome. Volume brewers liquor post ermentation - usually at packaging. That's part of the reason why so many commercial beers and ciders taste so thin.

This was pre-fermentation, an exercise to see if liquoring back into the fermenter before pitching would have any impact on the beer. It did. That's what the discussion is about. It wasn't an accident, it was designed in.

It really doesn't matter how many points it brought the FG down, how could I possibly know that?? It brought the original gravity down to exactly where I wanted it to be.

If you've not tried high mash temp to help with body maybe try this as a design step next batch Steve.
I always used to move mash temp high on low abv beer for that lower FG and more dextrins in the mash =less fermenatable = more body on the finished product even with possible watering down to hit intended ABV or FG.

Worth a shot and and easy control measures

Fine looking beverage BTW I'd personally drink the shoit outta that at that ABV

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

The thought about mash thickness is interesting. I spoke briefly to my brewing guru pal last night and he tells me that it's a mouthfeel issue that the brewing industry is very aware of and the cure is usually to mash at higher temps.

Yeah, definitely give this a try. Could you sneak in a small amount of flaked oats to help with mouthfeel? Or would an amount big enough change mouthfeel also change the flavor or ABV? Not an expert on the style as I've only brewed a mild once, back in extract days so I also topped up with a fair bit of water. I didn't make it again because of the thin mouthfeel. So, I hope you can crack this nut!

 

[Steve SPF]

All of my beers get malted naked oats, I'm mostly brewing lower ABV beers so a boost to the boday and mouthfeel is always welcome. Flaked oats are an interesting thought.

To be continued

 

[Donoroto]

Well, side by side isn't going to happen so I'm going to have to rely on myself...

Here's a thought: reserve 5 liters or so from the next batch, add varying amounts of water (from zero to 25% say) and ferment them all equally. Then you'll know for certain the effects and where your limits are.

If you don't have a bunch of small (2 liter?) fermenters, go buy 6 bottles of the cheapest soda at the grocers (under a pound for a 2 liter bottle I suspect), dump the contents and use them as fermenters. Blowoff tubes and duct tape.