Liquoring Back

[Steve SPF]

Any thoughts or experiences?

I'm scratching around for some more volume and just thinking that adding water to the fermenter before pitching might be the way to go.

I know that the big brewers here liquor back post fermentation and have always thought it one of the reasons why so many commercial beers taste so thin and lack aroma. I'm wondering if liquoring back pre fermentation might avoid that?

Anyone done it? What was the result?

 

[sbaclimber]

I have done it a fair number of times and was really happy with the results.
I can only boil max. 29 liters at a time, which after boil-off / hour leaves me with about 26 liters in the fermeter. Now days, I brew accordingly (mash tun vol. + H20 + malt), so that hit that volume spot on and can still carry the fermenter comfortably down the basement stairs.
A few years ago though, being younger and more ambitious, I figured if I mash thicker, get a higher gravity wort, boil as usual and then add 2-3 liters of boiled water to the fermenter, I will get more volume per brew. Worked like a charm except two things...
1) my fermenter was now 28-29liters and more awkward to get down the stairs
2) a thicker mash made for slightly worse efficiency
3) the stratification of the wort threw all of my OG measurements way off. I had to make sure to stir the wort thoroughly before taking a sample.
In the end, comfort and wallet vs less often brewing won out and I gave up, but as far as taste was concerned, worked like a charm.

PS, any calculated IBUs are probably also going to be ending up a bit off too, but I can't imagine by enough to notice...

 

[Minbari]

I top up pre fermentation all the time. I would think that post would have similar effect?

 

[TetersMillBrewing]

I'm scratching around for some more volume and just thinking that adding water to the fermenter before pitching might be the way to go.

Ok, I have to ask even though I think I know the answer. Wouldn't adding water pre-fermentation lower your original gravity. I am assuming you would add water that had been boiled.

 

[Zambezi Special]

I do it often
I deliberately overshoot gravity and adjust in the fermenter before pitching.
I use pre-boiled cold water to help with the cooling as well.

So 2 things, I get a higher volume and I can cool faster.
I measure gravity of the "concentrated" wort and calculate how much water I need for desired gravity

 

[Steve SPF]

I do it often
I deliberately overshoot gravity and adjust in the fermenter before pitching.
I use pre-boiled cold water to help with the cooling as well.

So 2 things, I get a higher volume and I can cool faster.
I measure gravity of the "concentrated" wort and calculate how much water I need for desired gravity

Exactly what I was thinking, higher OG and bring it back to desired OG, and no effect on finished product in terms of flavour as we are going with this pre fermentation?

Comments around lower efficiency are interesting, I do see diminishing returns as I aim for higher OGs so yes I can see that one coming and need to account for it.

@Minbari I'm thinking pre rather than post. I think the big brewers do it post fermentation and it affects the quality. Don't want that.

@TetersMillBrewing Sure, it affects the OG but as @Zambezi Special says you're ending up with a 'concentrate' so it actually gives some real control. I can calculate fairly accurately and be much closer to my desired OG.

I think I can boil extra water and then run it through the heat exchanger, or buy some from the wholesaler later today. I'm intending to brew a batch of mild tomorrow so will have a fiddle around with the numbers later and give it a crack. I'll report back.

 

[Zambezi Special]

I actually put figures for a higher volume (and lower efficiency) in the software.
Then make the actual wort fit the calculated one.

 

[Steve SPF]

Just chewing it over now.

My starting volume is 84lt which yields me 60lt into the casks. Ideally I need an extra 20lt so 25% on top which is quite a lot but it's only a 3.6% beer this time so should be possible. Time to get the slide-rule out

 

[Minbari]

Just like @Zambezi Special , i usually shoot for less liquid and high gravity so I can water it after the boil. It is easier to add more than take it out

 

[Donoroto]

Large brewers add their water post – Brew so that they can get the ABV spot on. In a really large brewery, you carry somewhat more liability for having the label be accurate then, say, a really small brewery where .1 or .2% might not even be noticed.

 

[Josh Hughes]

I almost always top off before fermentation. I think post fermentation is where thinness comes from in the commercial light beers. Of course they are going for a specific ABV and low ibu most of the time.

 

[The Brew Mentor]

A couple quick things to consider;
If adding post ferment, then the water ahold have the same PH as the beer it's diluting. I would also be concerned with the oxygen that would be in the water.
If added pre- ferment, then PH adjustment may be all

 

[Josh Hughes]

A couple quick things to consider;
If adding post ferment, then the water ahold have the same PH as the beer it's diluting. I would also be concerned with the oxygen that would be in the water.
If added pre- ferment, then PH adjustment may be all

I figure the top off in mine, bib ph and ibu. I usually get 1 gallon really cold to help with lowering he temp in summer.

 

[Steve SPF]

Large brewers add their water post – Brew so that they can get the ABV spot on. In a really large brewery, you carry somewhat more liability for having the label be accurate then, say, a really small brewery where .1 or .2% might not even be noticed.

I understand that, but I also understand that they produce really crappy beers as well, which is clearly not the aim here. We get a 0.5% ABV tolerance here so lots of wriggle room. For me, that's really helpful and I need the space. The big boys don't need the space, they are very much chasing a different rainbow.

 

[Craigerrr]

I understand that, but I also understand that they produce really crappy beers as well, which is clearly not the aim here. We get a 0.5% ABV tolerance here so lots of wriggle room. For me, that's really helpful and I need the space. The big boys don't need the space, they are very much chasing a different rainbow.

I would disagree that the big boys don't need the space. Think about it this way. I believe it is common for big beer to brew concentrated wort at a roughly 2:1 ratio. If they were to brew full volume batches their equipment and breweries would need to roughly double in size. I'm not saying I like it, or even care really, but it is simple economics. Not to mention that it works as most people will drink whatever swill is the cheapest!

 

[Steve SPF]

I would disagree that the big boys don't need the space. Think about it this way. I believe it is common for big beer to brew concentrated wort at a roughly 2:1 ratio. If they were to brew full volume batches their equipment and breweries would need to roughly double in size. I'm not saying I like it, or even care really, but it is simple economics. Not to mention that it works as most people will drink whatever swill is the cheapest!

I was meaning the space in the tolerance of the ABV. We get 0.5% so I can end up with a beer of, say, 3.2% or 4.0% and still label it as 3.6%. When Coors label Carling as 4% they know full well that it's 3.6% because at their scale it's a precise business, they are just exploiting the loophole given to them by the 0.5% tolerance.

I agree completely that they need the physical space. It makes perect sense to brew strong and wtaer it down at packaging.

 

[Donoroto]

I wonder what undiluted Bud, for example, might taste like.

Maybe a little like that first cup of coffee from the 40-cup drip batch. Jet Juice!

 

[Minbari]

I wonder what undiluted Bud, for example, might taste like.

Maybe a little like that first cup of coffee from the 40-cup drip batch. Jet Juice!

Lol ya. Make it without the rice adjuct and undiluted, might even be good, lol.

Problem is all the Budweiser fans wouldn't like it and it cost the same as good beer.

 

[Josh Hughes]

I wonder what undiluted Bud, for example, might taste like.

Maybe a little like that first cup of coffee from the 40-cup drip batch. Jet Juice!

Heard it was awesome

 

[Trialben]

Large brewers add their water post – Brew so that they can get the ABV spot on. In a really large brewery, you carry somewhat more liability for having the label be accurate then, say, a really small brewery where .1 or .2% might not even be noticed.

Amen and if I understand the commercial side of selling grog right you gotta be pretty stringent on getting your OG just right and your final ABV spot on.

@Steve SPF you have to provide data to the brew Authorities on this right?

So I can see where watering down to hit desired OG or final ABV could be quite common.