Incorrect Original Gravity With Custom Fermentables

Discussion in 'Recipe Editor' started by DaveCS, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. DaveCS

    DaveCS New Member

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    Hi There,

    This post may get wordy so please bear with me.

    I've had 2 recipes I created and brewed over the last 2 months that appear with a higher Original Gravity in the recipe editor than they do on actual brew day.

    The two recipes are as follows:
    Bigfoot Breakfast Stout
    Oat Pale Ale

    In creating the recipe I pull from my custom fermentables (which I've added; if they were not originally found in the database) and proceed as one normally would in creating a recipe in the editor. Of course, the recipe editor does all the calcs and provides guidance with respect to the OG (and expected Final Gravity) of the recipe.

    In both of those recipes above the Original Gravity shown is incorrect based on an oddity within the custom fermentables that I've added.

    The oddity is as follows (using the Oat Pale Ale recipe noted above):
    I had added OIO - Canadian Pale 2-Row prior to it being available in the database (i.e. I couldn't locate, originally, this specific malt in the database prior to adding it when the Custom Fermentables were made available to the Inventory functionality) I note that the "OG" of this OIO - Canadian Pale 2-Row I added (when editing the recipe) shows up to be 39.27 with a diastatic power of 140, Lovibond of 1.75, and Points per Pound per Gallon of 36.
    Image Via Google Drive

    If I use the grains available from the "Catalog" selection (i.e. NOT my Inventory) the Canadian Pale 2-Row (which is almost identical to the custom fermentable I had added) shows up with the following information:
    the "OG" is listed as 29.45 with a diastatic power of 140, Lovibond of 1.75 and Points per Pound per Gallon of 36.
    Image Via Google Drive

    Note the difference in the "OG" of the grain selected from "Inventory" vs "Catalog" (i.e. 39.27 vs 29.45 respectively)

    At issue is the following:
    I've looked through the Inventory editor and can't seem to locate anywhere where an individual could input the "OG" information for a fermentable that can explain the difference noted above. Why is there this difference in this fermentable/grain?
    Image Via Google Drive

    This difference, seems to be, the reason for a higher than expected Original Gravity within the Recipe Editor than is actually seen on Brew Day.

    Swapping out the "custom" fermentable (i.e. what I chose from my inventory) for the "catalog" fermentable (i.e. what is available from the current database/catalog) provides the correct Original Gravity which should be (and was) shown on Brew Day; that is, 1.048 and not 1.057.

    This same "oddity" occurred with the Bigfoot Breakfast Stout (linked above). The custom fermentable in question there was the base malt (Crisp Finest Maris Otter) which was added from my Inventory but shows an "OG" in the editor of 41.47 vs the Crisp Finest Maris Otter from the Catalog which would show an "OG" of 29.03.

    I'm not sure if this is an issue in HOW I am adding to my inventory OR it's something wonky within the Recipe Editor itself.

    Any assistance would be appreciated.

    Cheers,
    Dave
     
  2. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    I think your talking about PPG in custom fermentables a lower or higher PPG (Points Per Gallon) Malt will have better /worse yield when mashing. That's why I don't agree with everyone entering specific malt specs when year on year these specifics change depending on barley crop.

    The other thing maybe if your getting a lower yield out of your mash consistently maybe you could drop your brew house efficiency to match what your seeing in the brewery e.g. drop it to 70% to reflect a more realistic mash/brewhouse efficiency outcome?

    Hope that's helpful good luck your making beer but I understand your need for consistency. Cheers.
     
  3. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Dave
    I am in Cambridge, I also brew with the OIO - Canadian Pale 2-Row, more accurately "Ontario 2 row". I just have it in my inventory as the Canadian - Pale 2 Row that pre-exists in BF. The stats are close enough for me, I get results that are "close enough for the kind of girls I hang with most days"
     
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  4. DaveCS

    DaveCS New Member

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    Hey Craig(errrrr)

    Ya.. I think, with the help of some friends in the GTA Brews community on Facebook I was able to figure out what’s going on with this - it appears the “Mashed (check if item to be mashed)” checkbox may be the key to my frustration.
    “You need to mark the item as a product that needs to get mashed. The software is making the initial assumption that the product you are adding is 100% extractable, which won't be the case because brewhouses aren't 100% efficient.”

    That seems to make the most sense currently - hence the stupidly high “OG” listing under the “custom fermentable” added from my Inventory vs the “standard fermentable” added from Brewer’s Friend’s Catalog (Database).

    In the future, I will do my best to add to my inventory using “something sort of close to” what the actual grain will be - as grains do change from season to season (i.e. Lovibond, etc.)

    Cheers,
    Dave
     
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  5. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    Cheers Dave
     
  6. DaveCS

    DaveCS New Member

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    I'm going to resurrect this thread.

    Seems that scaling recipes now scales the "OG" of the grain......

    The original Dark Mild recipe (3 Gallon) shows the following grain bill:
    Screen Shot 2019-08-09 at 9.35.04 PM.png


    Scaling the recipe to 5.5 Gallons (1.833333 times the original) shows the following:
    Screen Shot 2019-08-09 at 9.34.17 PM.png


    While the amounts (weights) of the grain is correct the "OG" of the grain is also scaled up by 1.83333 times thereby throwing an error in the Original Gravity of the beer.

    Figures for the original recipe (3 Gallon):
    Screen Shot 2019-08-09 at 10.07.45 PM.png

    The scaled recipe (5.5 Gallon) shows the following figures:
    Screen Shot 2019-08-09 at 10.09.25 PM.png

    I need an admin or someone who is working here to have a look at this please.

    Thank you,
    Dave
     
  7. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    It's using the post boil volume of 2 gallons. You'd get 1.070 in a 2 gallon batch. Change it to the actual post boil volume, and see what the OG is.
     
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  8. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    #8 Pricelessbrewing, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
    The OG of the grain is showing you how much specific gravity that amount of grain is contributing in the recipe. As you scale the total recipe OG up, the grains OG will also scale equally since it's a keeping the grain weight % constant.

    If you have a recipe set up using 1.050 OG with ten lbs of grain, let's say 80% 2 row and 20% flaked wheat then scale to use twice as much grain the OG of the 2 row will go from 40 to 80.* The PPG will remain at the expected ~36-37.

    *But that's not really what's going to happen due to diminishing efficiency as OG increases).

    It's basically equivalent to tracking percent of OG instead of % of total grain bill..

    Don't confuse it with the grains PPG.
     
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