How long before re-pitching?

[Steve SPF]

So I brewed my favourite English Pale on Monday. All went well, hit all its numbers and I did a cross of immersion chilling down to 55c and then my fermenter controlled it the rest of the way down to 23c by 8pm at which stage I pitched the yeast (Safale S-04)

Having read the Fermentis guidelines I now re-hydrate the yeast in warmed up wort and then add that back to the fermenter. I expect fermentation to kick off pretty quickly and this one hasn't, it's now Wednesday 1pm so it's had a good 36 hours plus and has me flapping a bit.

Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards re-pitching and re-circulating.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

So I brewed my favourite English Pale on Monday. All went well, hit all its numbers and I did a cross of immersion chilling down to 55c and then my fermenter controlled it the rest of the way down to 23c by 8pm at which stage I pitched the yeast (Safale S-04)

Having read the Fermentis guidelines I now re-hydrate the yeast in warmed up wort and then add that back to the fermenter. I expect fermentation to kick off pretty quickly and this one hasn't, it's now Wednesday 1pm so it's had a good 36 hours plus and has me flapping a bit.

Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards re-pitching and re-circulating.

I don't know of anyone who re-hydrates yeast with warm wort, it's better to use water to avoid osmotic shock. I know your supposed to re-hydrate with warm water, but I re-hydrate with room temperature water (not distilled) because I want the yeast to be within a few degrees of the wort it's getting pitch into without waiting for it to cool. A lot of people don't even bother with re-hydration, especially with S04.

I think 36 hours is a really long lag time for S04, typically that yeast takes off in 4-12 hours. I'd re-pitch now. I have had this happen to me with dry yeast, not sure why it happened. The next time I used dry yeast, it took right off. Maybe the yeast was old or it got damaged from heat somewhere along it's way to me.

 

[Steve SPF]

② With prior rehydration:

Alternatively, sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or boiled and hopped wort at 25 to 29°C (77°F to 84°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes, gently stir and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.

That's the Fermentis advice for S-04. It might have been hotter than 29c so it's possible that heat was a problem. I agree though, it usually takes off real quick so this is a surprise. Was a really good brewday too.

 

[Craigerrr]

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SafAle-S-04.pdf

Fermentis says to either direct pitch, or rehydrate with water.

However. Our brew club had the north american rep for Fermentis in for a seminar last fall.
He very strongly recommended not to rehydrate, just direct pitch. He also said that there is no need to oxygenate the wort prior to pitching unless the gravity was higher than 1.060. I have since followed his recommendations and have had excellent results.

 

[Steve SPF]

https://fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SafAle-S-04.pdf

Fermentis says to either direct pitch, or rehydrate with water.

However. Our brew club had the north american rep for Fermentis in for a seminar last fall.
He very strongly recommended not to rehydrate, just direct pitch. He also said that there is no need to oxygenate the wort prior to pitching unless the gravity was higher than 1.060. I have since followed his recommendations and have had excellent results.

Or boiled and hopped wort. I don't want to argue it, just trying not to appear too dumb!

If that's the advice from the rep then that's good enough for me, I will re-pitch and keep an eye on it.

 

[Craigerrr]

Let us know how it goes.
Yeah, he said that the yeast has everything it needs for a healthy fermentation.
I was glad about that because rehydrating yeast is such a royal pain in the cahonas!

 

[Bubba Wade]

With all of the dry yeasts, I have stopped re-hydrating. I just dump the packet in the fermenter when the temperature falls below 80 °F (27 C). S-04 doesn't seem to start for me quite as quickly as US-05, but I would have thought you might have seen some activity by now.

Have you looked in the fermenter for signs or have you been relying on the airlock?

 

[Nosybear]

So I brewed my favourite English Pale on Monday. All went well, hit all its numbers and I did a cross of immersion chilling down to 55c and then my fermenter controlled it the rest of the way down to 23c by 8pm at which stage I pitched the yeast (Safale S-04)

Having read the Fermentis guidelines I now re-hydrate the yeast in warmed up wort and then add that back to the fermenter. I expect fermentation to kick off pretty quickly and this one hasn't, it's now Wednesday 1pm so it's had a good 36 hours plus and has me flapping a bit.

Any thoughts? I'm leaning towards re-pitching and re-circulating.

Rehydrating in warmed-up wort is the same as pitching the yeast directly into the fermentor. It's the sugar concentration that can damage the yeast. Just plain water is recommended for rehydration (boiled and cooled back to the recommended temperature), unless Fermentis has changed their guidelines since I last rehydrated a packet of yeast. I've had a couple of slow starts the past couple of batches, mostly lagers or cool-fermented ales, nothing to worry about. It'll still make good beer.

 

[Steve SPF]

With all of the dry yeasts, I have stopped re-hydrating. I just dump the packet in the fermenter when the temperature falls below 80 °F (27 C). S-04 doesn't seem to start for me quite as quickly as US-05, but I would have thought you might have seen some activity by now.

Have you looked in the fermenter for signs or have you been relying on the airlock?

It's hydrometer readings so definitely inactive so far. I've re-pitched so let's see if it takes off. The wort tastes great, sweet and bitter just like it's supposed to, so I'm more suspicous of a mis-step on my side rather than anything in the brew itself.

US05 is my other favourite, works really well for the beers I like.

 

[Steve SPF]

Rehydrating in warmed-up wort is the same as pitching the yeast directly into the fermentor. It's the sugar concentration that can damage the yeast. Just plain water is recommended for rehydration (boiled and cooled back to the recommended temperature), unless Fermentis has changed their guidelines since I last rehydrated a packet of yeast. I've had a couple of slow starts the past couple of batches, mostly lagers or cool-fermented ales, nothing to worry about. It'll still make good beer.

The packs say 'sprinkle into wort', the guidelines on their site say 'Alternatively, sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or boiled and hopped wort'

To my mind, re-hydrating was giving it a start. Looks like it may be a step that the yeast really doesn't need?

 

[Bubba Wade]

It's hydrometer readings so definitely inactive so far. I've re-pitched so let's see if it takes off. The wort tastes great, sweet and bitter just like it's supposed to, so I'm more suspicous of a mis-step on my side rather than anything in the brew itself.

US05 is my other favourite, works really well for the beers I like.

I have a good friend who had a misstep with her yeast. She's a terrible cook and tried to bake bread. To re-hydrate the yeast, she added boiling water from the kettle. Let's just say her bread turned out a little flat.

Keep in mind that you may have gotten a bad yeast pack. Doesn't happen very often, but still occurs on occasion.

 

[Bubba Wade]

Also, here's the fermentation curve from my last batch with the S-04 yeast. I was showing a decent amount of attenuation after 24 hours, roughly a decrease from 1.052 to about 1.040.

 

[Nosybear]

The packs say 'sprinkle into wort', the guidelines on their site say 'Alternatively, sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or boiled and hopped wort'

To my mind, re-hydrating was giving it a start. Looks like it may be a step that the yeast really doesn't need?

We've had lots of disagreement on that subject: Some say it's a good thing, some not. Rehydrating with water lets the yeast come back from their dormancy without stressing the cell walls - rehydrating with concentrated sugar - wort - present can kill up to half the cells in a packet of yeast. If I use dry yeast I generally will rehydrate it, if I don't rehydrate, I get lots of fruity esters typical of an underpitch. I rehydrate in water which, admittedly, runs a risk of contaminating the yeast but I also do squeaky-clean sanitation.

A single packet of dried yeast will yield about the same number of cells as a reasonably fresh packet of liquid yeast, sufficient to pitch 5 gallons of 1.046 wort. If your batch size is bigger or your gravity higher, you'll need more cells unless you like lots of esters in your beer. Personally, I don't like the fruitcake flavor of an underpitched beer but again, it's your call. Rehydration increases the number of viable cells, as does making starters. Hopefully I won't reignite the discussion on whether to rehydrate or not, I'll just point out there are pluses and minuses to both approaches.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

We've had lots of disagreement on that subject: Some say it's a good thing, some not. Rehydrating with water lets the yeast come back from their dormancy without stressing the cell walls - rehydrating with concentrated sugar - wort - present can kill up to half the cells in a packet of yeast. If I use dry yeast I generally will rehydrate it, if I don't rehydrate, I get lots of fruity esters typical of an underpitch. I rehydrate in water which, admittedly, runs a risk of contaminating the yeast but I also do squeaky-clean sanitation.

A single packet of dried yeast will yield about the same number of cells as a reasonably fresh packet of liquid yeast, sufficient to pitch 5 gallons of 1.046 wort. If your batch size is bigger or your gravity higher, you'll need more cells unless you like lots of esters in your beer. Personally, I don't like the fruitcake flavor of an underpitched beer but again, it's your call. Rehydration increases the number of viable cells, as does making starters. Hopefully I won't reignite the discussion on whether to rehydrate or not, I'll just point out there are pluses and minuses to both approaches.

I agree. I’ve seen it turn out well both ways, but I always rehydrate. I think it gives you quicker starts. After the yeast rehydrates, I add a small amount of cooled wort from the beer to acclimate the yeast and then pitch.

 

[Steve SPF]

@Nosybear I guess if Fermentis can't give a definitive answer then there's always going to be a discussion...

I try to pitch appropriately to get clean and consistent flavours. I've re-pitched now so that batch of 70lt or so has now had 60gm of yeast; hopefully it takes off overnight!

@Bubba Wade I really, really hope it isn't a bad pack because it's 500gm!

 

[Bubba Wade]

@Nosybear @Bubba Wade I really, really hope it isn't a bad pack because it's 500gm!

Yes, that would be an expensive pack of dead yeast!

 

[Hawkbox]

I did a red ale the other day and put S-04 in one fermenter and BRY-97 in the other and just pitched them both directly in. Worked fine in both cases.
Maybe make a small starter or something and toss some of the brick in it on a stir plate if you have one? Easy enough way to test if it's viable.

 

[Craigerrr]

Not to make this into an argument, but this is a snapshot of the conclusion slide from the presentation by Jose, and some details about Jose. He went on to discuss oxygenation after his presentation. He said that there is NO NEED to oxygenate wort that is 1060 or less. I have brewed five 10 gallon batches using US-05 since with 1060 or less gravity since October. Direct pitch, no oxygenation. There was no difference to my past brews, and there were no off flavors. The most recent batch I used US-05 on ended up a little high on the OG at 1063. I direct pitched, with no oxygenation, beer turned out great, no of flavors. Fermentation time was no different than normal.

So do what you gotta do, but I just wanted to share this with everyone in greater detail.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Not to make this into an argument, but this is a snapshot of the conclusion slide from the presentation by Jose, and some details about Jose. He went on to discuss oxygenation after his presentation. He said that there is NO NEED to oxygenate wort that is 1060 or less. I have brewed five 10 gallon batches using US-05 since with 1060 or less gravity since October. Direct pitch, no oxygenation. There was no difference to my past brews, and there were no off flavors. The most recent batch I used US-05 on ended up a little high on the OG at 1063. I direct pitched, with no oxygenation, beer turned out great, no of flavors. Fermentation time was no different than normal.

So do what you gotta do, but I just wanted to share this with everyone in greater detail.
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View attachment 9690

No aeration holds true for dry yeast but not liquid yeast. If you aerate dry yeast it doesn’t hurt and may help with an under pitch. Once dry yeast is harvested, it should be treated as liquid.

Liquid yeast benefits from aerated wort. That is a well established practice both amount pro’s and home brewers.

I really don’t want an argument either, but it’s a good discussion.

 

[Craigerrr]

Good point, I am only referring to initial pitch of dry yeast from Fermentis.
I can't comment on other dry yeast manufacturers, haven't met and had a beer with a rep from any other yeast manufacturer.

Steve
If you bought the 500 gram brick, beware that once you open it it needs to be handled a certain way.
Following link is their Q&A section on their website.
There is also Q&A about re pitching here.

https://fermentis.com/en/tips-n-tricks/questions-and-answers/