Hazy IPA Question

geaux_brew

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Just finished my first attempt at a Hazy IPA. It did not go as planned. I went for a 146 degree mash. Undershot a little and ended up at 144. I am typically around 78-80% on my extract efficiency. I had about a 68% on this one. My grain bill was around 38% adjunct. I am guessing my efficiency was more likely due to the low diastatic power than it was from the temperature. I used 1/2 a teaspoon of amylase enzyme from LD Carlson as the package indicated, but apparently that wasn't enough. Any recommendations on a different enzyme or dosage to help with extract efficiency? As it stands now looks like I unintentionally made a session hazy ipa.
 
The difference between those temperatures doesn't explain that difference. How long did you leave it? Alpha amylase isn't very efficient at those temperatures. And the beta amylase, which is OK at those temps, needs the alpha to have done it's work first.

What were the adjuncts? Unmalted ones would be pushing you close to the edge of not enough enzymes, but then you've added the extra enzyme, so that could fix the problem. Did you add the extra amylase after the mash? What temp was the wort when you added it?
 
The difference between those temperatures doesn't explain that difference. How long did you leave it? Alpha amylase isn't very efficient at those temperatures. And the beta amylase, which is OK at those temps, needs the alpha to have done it's work first.

What were the adjuncts? Unmalted ones would be pushing you close to the edge of not enough enzymes, but then you've added the extra enzyme, so that could fix the problem. Did you add the extra amylase after the mash? What temp was the wort when you added it?

2 lbs of flaked oats, and 3 lbs of oat malts. I also had 4 lbs of Marris Otter and 4 lbs pale ale malt. I added the amylase at about 144 degrees. I also did a 75 minute mash to give it a little extra time. I am guessing I probably needed to add more than just the 1/2 teaspoon that the package said. The diastatic power of the two base malts is a little low for that much adjunct grains.
 
2 lbs of flaked oats, and 3 lbs of oat malts. I also had 4 lbs of Marris Otter and 4 lbs pale ale malt. I added the amylase at about 144 degrees. I also did a 75 minute mash to give it a little extra time. I am guessing I probably needed to add more than just the 1/2 teaspoon that the package said. The diastatic power of the two base malts is a little low for that much adjunct grains.
I'm guessing longer conversion time was needed I'd if gone a good long two step mash 90mins
You can always test for Starch conversion with iodine (not that I do)
Also if you had. Refractometer (not that I do) you could reference your mash gravity against your recipie predicted pre boil gravity to see if your in the ball park to mash out.
 
one thing That has saved me is the iodine test. it can Show you if the mash is done on not.

I Routinely mash at 148-152. never had an Issue.
 
The difference between those temperatures doesn't explain that difference. How long did you leave it? Alpha amylase isn't very efficient at those temperatures. And the beta amylase, which is OK at those temps, needs the alpha to have done it's work first.
I think you have something backwards...Yes beta works best in temps from 140 to 149 but alpha works in best temps close to 160. Step mash or typical lager infusion of 148 alone would never work if beta couldn't couldn't convert until alpha was done.
 
I think you have something backwards...Yes beta works best in temps from 140 to 149 but alpha works in best temps close to 160. Step mash or typical lager infusion of 148 alone would never work if beta couldn't couldn't convert until alpha was done.
Done as in finished isn't what I was driving at. Probably could have phrased it better.

'until alpha is done', was more about beta having removed all the simple sugar molecules it could and was waiting for alpha to break more of the complex sugars so it could continue it's work. And that's me just guessing. Maybe at beta's preferred temps alpha creates enough breaks in the sugar molecules to keep beta working at full capacity.
 
2 lbs of flaked oats, and 3 lbs of oat malts.
First of all, these adjuncts add a huge amount of beta glucan to the mash. Beta glucan was often call "gum" in the past. The mash with excess beta glucan is gummy, thick and difficult to manage. The beta glucan can also trap many of the starch molecules from coming in contact with the amylase enzyme. As a result, mash efficiencies are lowered, sparge and lautering come to a trickle. Brewers will sometimes falsely believe it's the starch in the mash that's causing it. Beta glucan in barley is broken down during the malting process and maltsters try to keep it to a minimum. Well modified malt will contain less beta glucan then a malt that has less modification, that's one of the reasons to rest between 125F-130F with lower modified malt, it give what's left of the beta glucanase enzyme a chance at breaking down more completely the beta glucan.

Beta glucanase is naturally occurring in barley malt, but is quickly denatured above 125F. That's why it may be beneficial to use exogenous enzyme beta glucanase in the mash. In addition to the amylase enzyme added to the mash, beta glucanase can be added to deal with the gummy mash. This will allow the both beta and alpha amylase to covert the mash more completely.

Beta glucanase enzyme derived from a bacteria source has a higher temperature threshold than the what naturally occurs in barley malt. These bacteria derived exogenous beta glucan enzymes can work up to 168F. The effects are noticeable with 30-60 seconds of adding it to the mash. The additional amylase enzyme that was added, needs to work in conjunction with the beta amylase found in the barley malt. So to get a better conversion, it's important to rest when a beta and alpha are both active or rest at lower temperatures longer. Even though the alpha enzyme is more active above 152F the beta enzyme works off the alpha enzyme. The beta can't break down the more complex starch molecules until the alpha has broken down to a size that beta can work on it. It's a misunderstood idea that alpha is not active until it's above 150 and beta stops above 152. Alpha is active at 144, but it's at a slower rate than at 154F. Beta continues to work above 150F but begins to denature and is soon gone. That's why a mash at 150-152 is a good temperature for most beers.

Long story short. It's very helpful to add beta glucanase enzyme in addition to the alpha amylase enzyme to the mash to increase starch conversion. Lower temperatures are okay, but a step up in temperature will increase overall mash conversion. Rice hulls in the mash may also help.

This is where you can get beta glacanase:

https://www.morebeer.com/products/cellarscience-glucabuster-placeholder.html

Be careful about dosages, a 1/4 tsp will treat 10-15 pounds of grain, add to much and the cellulose will begin to break down and create the same problem you were trying to solve. This stuff makes RIMS and HERMS systems work better too. i use it with every brew.

Edit: Mash pH also plays a big role in conversion efficiencies, but that's long explanation.
 
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I do a stout with about 2lbs of flaked wheat and oats (combined) protein test at 122 works very well.
 
My method isn't based on much science... When I brew a hazy I stir the mash frequently, and often mash for 120 minutes, plus a 15-30 minute mash out. I keep track of gravity with a a refractometer as I go. Once the gravity has peaked I do the 15 to 30 minute mashout, and give it a couple more stirs. I usually pick up a couple more points in the mashout. I also keep DME on hand and will add what is necessary, if any, to get my desired preboil gravity. Early in the mash I will stir most of the grain, later in the mash, and in the mashout I only stir the top half of the mash.
Not sure if this helps or not, but I thought it seemed relevant.
 

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