Has anybody done this ....

The
Same here, I always get splashing and foaming when I empty the kettle to the fermenter. Rarely is the temperature below 80F, as I typically make up volume in the fermenter with clean ice to finish dropping it to pitch temp. I’ll spend some time on the articles after a lovely lasagne and see how badly I’m hosing up my beer.
There's lots of good reasons to chill your beer quickly. No Chill method is a compromise developed by Aussie brewers looking to reduce water usage. But even No Chill has some guidelines to follow for the best final product
 
This is from Palmer (howtobrew link above). Bold is mine.

COOLING THE WORT
At the end of the boil, it is important to cool the wort quickly. While it is still hot, (above 140°F) bacteria and wild yeasts are inhibited. But it is very susceptible to oxidation damage as it cools. There are also the previously mentioned sulfur compounds that evolve from the wort while it is hot. If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer. The objective is to rapidly cool the wort to below 80°F before oxidation or contamination can occur.

Rapid cooling also forms the Cold Break. This is composed of another group of proteins that need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. Cold break, or rather the lack of it, is the cause of Chill Haze. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve. Only by rapid chilling from near-boiling to room temperature will the Cold Break proteins permanently precipitate and not cause Chill Haze. Chill haze is usually regarded as a cosmetic problem. You cannot taste it. However, chill haze indicates that there is an appreciable level of cold-break-type protein in the beer, which has been linked to long-term stability problems. Hazy beer tends to become stale sooner than non-hazy beer.



So... the obvious (rhetorical) question is: What is the definition of rapid cooling? o_O
5 minutes?
30 minutes?
2 hours?

It takes me about 45 minutes to cool my wort in an ice bath. I'm guessing that this amount of time would not be considered "rapid".
Probably not the same source, but I’ve read the same thing with the same conclusions. That said, one has to wonder who read whose work and regurgitated it.
To that end, I have some reservations about no-chill and oxidation issues, and like you, I still haven’t found a clear definition of ’fast’. How was cold crashing achieved by monks at Inchcolm Abbey in the 11th and 12th centuries. I doubt they had or understood the science of thermodynamics and heat transfer or ways to move the mass of water required to cool large quantities of ale/beer. The amount of water available from the wells would hardly have supplied the process, let alone the brewing and other daily needs. They certainly had cooler climate, but also would have been using more primitive vessels with lousy heat transfer quality. Makes a strong case against that whole article, however, perhaps their standards for taste and recognition of the source of’off flavors’ wasn’t quite as detailed either.
 
The

There's lots of good reasons to chill your beer quickly. No Chill method is a compromise developed by Aussie brewers looking to reduce water usage. But even No Chill has some guidelines to follow for the best final product
Yeah, I’m very familiar with Aussie water conservation. The owner of the motel where my wife worked before coming to the States always told me that our (Yanks) greatest wealth was our supply of water.
 
But compared to 12 hours of chilling overnight, 45 minutes seems rapid...I've definitely seen chill haze in my no chill brews, but I've also seen it in my brews chilled in 30-60 minutes using equipment. Definitely one of those, "whatever gets you good results" kind of things
Exactly the ghost I’m chasing, cloudy beer.
 
I'd have to say the DMS reference from the Palmer piece is probably not much of a risk. You've hopefully driven it off during the boil so you're not relying on the first 10-20 minutes or so of cooling to get rid of it. And modern malt seems to make it really hard to create DMS full stop.

Chill haze is interesting. I pay little attention to clarity and I've only done a few no chill batches so I could easily have missed it. I'll have to see if I can pay attention next time I do one.

The big way to screw up no chill for me is adding too many late hops that keep isomerizing in the cube/bag creating something way too bitter.
 
Possibly, but how are you going to avoid aeration when pitching, when aeration is EXACTLY what you do want. If

Yes, you will still want to oxygenate or aerate the wort but I'm pointing out timing.

Remember...wort wants to ferment and is not particularly choosy with what makes that happen, bacteria or yeast. The introduction of air and all the other stuff in it, dust, pollen, bacteria and wild spores, WITHOUT the yeast that we want to ferment the wort, leaves only the spores and bacteria to ferment the wort. Without the yeasts doing their job, there is nothing to take over and transform the wort the way you want to transform it.
So my point is; yes, aerate, but do it at pitching not before only to prevent introducing anything you don't want to take over the wort.
 
I've done it. Worked OK, but I do different now.
Cool as much as I can (prob till something like 15 oC above cool water temp), then leave out to cool.
No longer got enough power to go to fridge or freezer (I run on solar).
OR
Go higher initial OG, cool till whatever is possible and use ice or cold water to bring to the OG you want (make sure water or ice is clean). Hopefully that brings you close to pitching temperature
I've done the last technique as well. Made the boiled wort just large enough volume to dissolve extracts and additions, hop it, then put in the fermenter. Then I start adding ice until I get to target temperature, and top up with cool water. It's the epitome of cold break, if that's a good thing. Whole grain makes that a little more difficult if efficiency/utilization are targets. To me, though, saving a few bucks on grain with longer mash times or more sparging to permit thinner mashes seems counter productive. Doing things on the cheap is NEVER efficient. Most anything I've ever done can be done three exclusive ways. Cheap, Good. Fast. Pick one. My target is Good, but I'm a tightwad, too. I really try to keep my costs at or below buying it off the shelf in the stores. Otherwise, it really is a lot easier to just go buy something to drink.

Seems like a lot of various techniques is personal preference or opinion, especially on the effects of aeration prior to pitch temp or the effects of no-chill cooling. I still don't think I've got an answer that convinces me one way or the other, other than the fact that immersioni chillers use a lot of water. I don't have a way to pressure transfer with CO2, and not likely to have one for a while. I may adapt that technique after I finally switch to kegging, but I'm pretty much stuck with some aeration while transferring from kettle to fermenter. I get a LOT of contradiction from my LHBS, even with books that he recommends I read. So, naturally, I ask more questions about things I've learned here and from other reading. Information is my friend, regardless of bias.
 
I have used the no chill method several times with no negative results. Then again, I'm not as exacting as some of you about clarity and such. I mostly use it in the winter (it's coming) when my basement can be 58F degrees or lower. Seal the kettle with plastic wrap, put the top on and by afternoon the next day., I can pitch the yeast.
 
I'd have to say the DMS reference from the Palmer piece is probably not much of a risk. You've hopefully driven it off during the boil so you're not relying on the first 10-20 minutes or so of cooling to get rid of it. And modern malt seems to make it really hard to create DMS full stop.

Chill haze is interesting. I pay little attention to clarity and I've only done a few no chill batches so I could easily have missed it. I'll have to see if I can pay attention next time I do one.

The big way to screw up no chill for me is adding too many late hops that keep isomerizing in the cube/bag creating something way too bitter.
I think that piece is exactly why I stopped leaving the lid on the kettle during boil (to keep leaves, etc from falling in the kettle). Well, that and boil-overs. Now I just pick calmer days where there's less risk of falling debris. Can't imagine the damage some tree mold would do in a batch, but boiling SHOULD kill anything that falls in. As soon as I flame-out with the IC ready to go, I prop the lid on the kettle to make sure nothing falls in after I start cooling.

I'm reasonably certain most of my clarity issue was with stirred up sediments using an auto-siphon when racking from the fermenter to the bottling bucket. Using finings seems to have cleared that up some, but I'm still learning new handling techniques to improve what I do. Ever reaching for perfection, ya know? Not that I dislike anything I brew, but sure would be nice if it had an better appearance when I share it.
 
I've done the last technique as well. Made the boiled wort just large enough volume to dissolve extracts and additions, hop it, then put in the fermenter. Then I start adding ice until I get to target temperature, and top up with cool water. It's the epitome of cold break, if that's a good thing. Whole grain makes that a little more difficult if efficiency/utilization are targets.
Just for the record, I do this (cold water, not ice) with biab all grain.
Just a sg reading and then a simple calculation will get you the amount of water to add
 
Here's an article to get you started. Like other things in brewing, you can delve in as deep as you'd like, or stay at the surface level info. And there are many opinions out there between brewers. I will say through personal experience that I completely oxidized a batch of beer at 140' F by pouring it into another vessel from the kettle

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/amp/4vQFCvGmuD

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/boiling-and-cooling/cooling-the-wort
First link just gives me some kind of text page from Google about fonts. Second is OK. Thanks.
 
I googled away! Here is a beer experiment that suggests HSA is not a big deal, although the HSA glass he holds up on the right does appear a bit more hazy. https://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/
I keep wondering - with all the splashing from transfers, and all the time it takes to cool large volumes, aren’t commercial brews exposed to HSA risk by a risk factor that is hundreds of times larger than the risks of exposure in the home brewing process? Hence they have a greater need to control what risks they can. And more at stake than pride.
 
I googled away! Here is a beer experiment that suggests HSA is not a big deal, although the HSA glass he holds up on the right does appear a bit more hazy. https://brulosophy.com/2014/11/18/is-hot-side-aeration-fact-or-fiction-exbeeriment-results/
I keep wondering - with all the splashing from transfers, and all the time it takes to cool large volumes, aren’t commercial brews exposed to HSA risk by a risk factor that is hundreds of times larger than the risks of exposure in the home brewing process? Hence they have a greater need to control what risks they can. And more at stake than pride.
I have oxidized beer due to hot side aeration. I think opinions on this topic vary from brewer to brewer and what they've experienced. If you make good beer, don't change your process :)
 
Clawhammer brewing supplies make an all in one that literally spray jets the hot mash liquor down on the grain bed.
They don't believe in Hot side airation.

Personally I heed it and return the liquor gently ontop of the bed and try and reduce splashing and too vigerous a boil.
But hey it's one of them brewing mysteries to me.
 
I kinda had this discussion with my LHBS as well. And didn't get any more convinced either way than i was before I went in the store. He gives me his beer judge opinion, and I let him think that I take it as gospel. We maintain a pleasant relationship that way and avoid argument. Did I mention I am an engineer and agnostic? Show me. His opinion is that fly sparging is the epitome of aeration but delivers the best efficiency. I.E., a tradeoff of HSA for better grain efficiency. I have to agree that dripping small jets of wort back into the bed couldn't be much worse for aeration. The splashing doesn't have to be the magnitude of a toilet flushing to be a bad thing. Little splashes that last a long time are just as bad. Then, he tells me that if I'm not boiling vigorously enough, I'm not going to get the best protein break-down. Wait a minute. Seems like a contradiction in terms to me. If HSA is going to be the root of cloudiness or otherwise bad beer, and I can't vigorously boil without HSA, how the heck am I EVER going to make a clear beer without finings? (I know it can be done, so I keep trying). I'm starting to think there's no such thing as a clear beer without finings or expensive ceramic filters. I've done a gentle rolling boil and one that wanted to continuously run over, and point blank, absolutely no difference in the outcome (other than nearly scorching the latter). None I could detect, anyway. I'm that guy, that when driving down the road and I see the driver's arm extended out the window, I do not take it to mean they are turning or stopping. I take it to mean the window is open. That is the only truth I can discern from seeing the arm.

So, just to add a new wrinkle to the discussion, what about doing hot transfers with vacuum? I can't think of a better way to remove air and keep it out of the wort. That certainly takes some more sophisticated equipment though, and much higher quality seals on hoses and fittings.

Everything I've read is about pressure transfers being the safest way to handle the wort because the CO2 will eliminate the effects of splashing in air. Ok, I can see that keeping baddies out of the tank. But riddle me this: If the wort already has air dissolved in it from fly sparging, transferring, boiling, and transferring again, how is a positive pressure on the vessel going to get that aeration OUT? It cannot and will indeed keep it in there longer doing exactly the opposite of the intent. Putting it under vacuum for at least a short time would indeed help devoid the wort of dissolved air. Contradictory, though, the yeast needs the air/O2 to propagate and do what we want done. It's a bit of a conundrum. How do we keep the bad air out and still leave the yeast something to live on?

I say the jury's still out on this one. I may one day be swayed and will maintain an open mind about it until then. For now, it looks like the purest way to give the yeast what it needs and achieve ZERO aeration issues would to be to pull a vacuum on the fermenter first, then start injecting pure O2 in to aerate with the right stuff at the right time, and then finally inject the yeast into the purest wort possible. Cut off the O2, and seal it up for fermentation. This just sounds expensive and quite possibly unachievable, or at least a lot more costly and troublesome than I'm willing to invest on a hobby. But, I'm willing to invest in things that will make a real tangible difference. Then, finally, what if the yeast quits (high alcohol level, etc) before all the O2 is used up? Uh oh. Now I've done it.

One thing I'm learning about the whole process is that the closest I will ever be to becoming a brewing purist is if I can at least learn enough about hops, malts, and yeasts to keep a 'style' of beer at least something similar to the country from whence it originated. But I'm also learning that stuff from different places makes purty good beer. Guess I'll just be a brewing mutt.
 
I kinda had this discussion with my LHBS as well. And didn't get any more convinced either way than i was before I went in the store. He gives me his beer judge opinion, and I let him think that I take it as gospel. We maintain a pleasant relationship that way and avoid argument. Did I mention I am an engineer and agnostic? Show me. His opinion is that fly sparging is the epitome of aeration but delivers the best efficiency. I.E., a tradeoff of HSA for better grain efficiency. I have to agree that dripping small jets of wort back into the bed couldn't be much worse for aeration. The splashing doesn't have to be the magnitude of a toilet flushing to be a bad thing. Little splashes that last a long time are just as bad. Then, he tells me that if I'm not boiling vigorously enough, I'm not going to get the best protein break-down. Wait a minute. Seems like a contradiction in terms to me. If HSA is going to be the root of cloudiness or otherwise bad beer, and I can't vigorously boil without HSA, how the heck am I EVER going to make a clear beer without finings? (I know it can be done, so I keep trying). I'm starting to think there's no such thing as a clear beer without finings or expensive ceramic filters. I've done a gentle rolling boil and one that wanted to continuously run over, and point blank, absolutely no difference in the outcome (other than nearly scorching the latter). None I could detect, anyway. I'm that guy, that when driving down the road and I see the driver's arm extended out the window, I do not take it to mean they are turning or stopping. I take it to mean the window is open. That is the only truth I can discern from seeing the arm.

So, just to add a new wrinkle to the discussion, what about doing hot transfers with vacuum? I can't think of a better way to remove air and keep it out of the wort. That certainly takes some more sophisticated equipment though, and much higher quality seals on hoses and fittings.

Everything I've read is about pressure transfers being the safest way to handle the wort because the CO2 will eliminate the effects of splashing in air. Ok, I can see that keeping baddies out of the tank. But riddle me this: If the wort already has air dissolved in it from fly sparging, transferring, boiling, and transferring again, how is a positive pressure on the vessel going to get that aeration OUT? It cannot and will indeed keep it in there longer doing exactly the opposite of the intent. Putting it under vacuum for at least a short time would indeed help devoid the wort of dissolved air. Contradictory, though, the yeast needs the air/O2 to propagate and do what we want done. It's a bit of a conundrum. How do we keep the bad air out and still leave the yeast something to live on?

I say the jury's still out on this one. I may one day be swayed and will maintain an open mind about it until then. For now, it looks like the purest way to give the yeast what it needs and achieve ZERO aeration issues would to be to pull a vacuum on the fermenter first, then start injecting pure O2 in to aerate with the right stuff at the right time, and then finally inject the yeast into the purest wort possible. Cut off the O2, and seal it up for fermentation. This just sounds expensive and quite possibly unachievable, or at least a lot more costly and troublesome than I'm willing to invest on a hobby. But, I'm willing to invest in things that will make a real tangible difference. Then, finally, what if the yeast quits (high alcohol level, etc) before all the O2 is used up? Uh oh. Now I've done it.

One thing I'm learning about the whole process is that the closest I will ever be to becoming a brewing purist is if I can at least learn enough about hops, malts, and yeasts to keep a 'style' of beer at least something similar to the country from whence it originated. But I'm also learning that stuff from different places makes purty good beer. Guess I'll just be a brewing mutt.
Roadie, I can't speak for everyone, but I have no idea what question you're asking here. Is there anyone way you could condense your question to 30 words or less? This is a group that likes to help, but help us help you :)
 
I get the feeling Roadie is just exploring the rabbit hole of brewing here on this forum and prying for answers that sometimes we don't even know ourselves :p!

Through teaching others you can both learn that's why I love the brew forum here;).

Your at an exciting time in your brewing Roadie takes me back to my first couple of years at the HB brew front so many questions so many answers and differing opinions out there sounds alot like life in general.

You just gotta wade through the information try it out for yourself see if it works for you and adapt it to your brewing process.

I've come to the conclusion that there really isn't any right or wrong way to go about this brewing beer thing you just gotta find what works best for you in your situation.

Cheers keep on drinking and keep on brewing share your failures share your successes so we can all learn and become better brewers.
 
Roadie, it's beer and there's endless ways to go about it and achieve good results.
I first explored HSA in a George Fix book from way back. It has been beat up since and people have different opinions on it, but I think if you can avoid it, why not?
I have done No Chill years ago and if I recall correctly, was able to achieve clear beer with some lagering. I'm sure I drank it all!
Maybe reach out to your favorite local craft brewery and ask some questions about their process. You can usually talk to one of the Brewers or assistant's and get a more in depth understanding of what they're doing.
You may be able to modify you process to mimic what they're doing.
And last, I love that you're striving for the best beer you can make!
Cheers,
Brian
 
Hell, I may be stupid, but I can cool a boiling kettle down to around 78F in 15 or 20 minutes with a wort chiller and a little bit of ice. That is with tap water that is around 80F. I have also used bad yeast and had to repitch into a fermenter that was closed and sat overnight.
If you want a little more clarity, you can filter some of the mess with a strainer and a funnel draining into the fermenter. The splashing from that also gives you oxygen below 80F.
If you don't want leaves in the wort, you can brew under a canopy.
I want to help where I can and learn where I can which is why a agree about condensing the questions. However, I'm probably too damn simple:)
 

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