Has anybody done this ....

[RoadRoach]

I keep seeing discussions about no-chill, so naturally, I'm intrigued and curious about 'no chill' techniques.

I read where some just basically stop at flame-out and do nothing for X hours until pitching temperature is reached. That's great if you live in a cooler part of the country, or if you're using a more temperature tolerant yeast. But even in Autumn in Alabama, you could be waiting a couple days for a 'no-chill' batch to cool enough, if it ever actually does get cool enough for some yeast strains.

So my question is, if I have (and most of you know I do) a temperature controller, a freezer for controlling fermentation temperature, and an urge to keep the process moving a little quicker, would it be OK to put the hot batch in the freezer, set the temperature controller for pitching temperature, and then just let it sit overnight to pitch the next morning? How different is this to a real 'no-chill' technique? How/will it affect the final product? Is it still better to chill if I can? Our water temps are still a little high, though that should be changing soon. It takes a lot of water to cool a batch, and unfortunately, I'm not set up to capture it and re-use it for gardening, etc. We have plenty water, but if I don't have to waste something, I prefer not.

Has anyone else used such a hybrid 'no-chill' method?

 

[Donoroto]

I keep seeing discussions about no-chill, so naturally, I'm intrigued and curious about 'no chill' techniques.

I read where some just basically stop at flame-out and do nothing for X hours until pitching temperature is reached. That's great if you live in a cooler part of the country, or if you're using a more temperature tolerant yeast. But even in Autumn in Alabama, you could be waiting a couple days for a 'no-chill' batch to cool enough, if it ever actually does get cool enough for some yeast strains.

So my question is, if I have (and most of you know I do) a temperature controller, a freezer for controlling fermentation temperature, and an urge to keep the process moving a little quicker, would it be OK to put the hot batch in the freezer, set the temperature controller for pitching temperature, and then just let it sit overnight to pitch the next morning? How different is this to a real 'no-chill' technique? How/will it affect the final product? Is it still better to chill if I can? Our water temps are still a little high, though that should be changing soon. It takes a lot of water to cool a batch, and unfortunately, I'm not set up to capture it and re-use it for gardening, etc. We have plenty water, but if I don't have to waste something, I prefer not.

Has anyone else used such a hybrid 'no-chill' method?

I have. Just make sure there's nothing in the freezer that can be harmed by the temporary high heat. I also took measures to ensure that no air got into the fermenter because of the contraction due to the cold, but it's not that important just before fermentation.

 

[RoadRoach]

I have. Just make sure there's nothing in the freezer that can be harmed by the temporary high heat. I also took measures to ensure that no air got into the fermenter because of the contraction due to the cold, but it's not that important just before fermentation.

The only thing that will be in the freezer will be the fermenter. I have a separate fridge for my finished beer and perishable ingredients. It's an itty bitty freezer, or actually, a massive space hogging fermenter. The contraction issue is exactly what I was wondering about. My fermenter is not a pressure rated fermenter, per the manufacturer specs. Not so much the liquid contraction though I know there's some, but I know for sure that the air is going to shrink considerably inside that fermenter. I've got the lead for the ITC-1000F just hanging through the door gasket, which will relieve a vacuum inside the freezer to prevent it from imploding. That means sucking outside air in, though. What can I do other than an airlock on this puppy? I'm thinking it won't mind a couple PSI, so in the future, I'm planning to add that capability for low-pressure fermenting as well as pressure transfer so I don't even have to pick up that awkward fermenter. I could just put a very slight pressure on it with CO2 and let it stay purged in that case. Worst case I blow the top off the thing. Best case, I get some self-carbonating batches if I can pressure ferment. End result will likely be getting a fermenter that is pressure rated. I want a stainless one, but not sure the missus is gonna give permission or forgiveness on that one. Doesn't stop me from putting it in her wish list on Amazon, though.

 

[GFHomebrew]

My only thoughts are that freezer is gunna be working hard to cool it.

You do you man but nature will cool it easily to 30c most nights then just let the freezer take it the rest of the way.

 

[RoadRoach]

My only thoughts are that freezer is gunna be working hard to cool it.

You do you man but nature will cool it easily to 30c most nights then just let the freezer take it the rest of the way.

Point taken. That’s a large mass to cool. It’ll aerate and cool quite a bit just pumping it into the fermenter. Maybe pump it in, and just leave the door open overnight, and turn it on the next morning. Still gonna take a while

Good beer can’t be hurried, though.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Point taken. That’s a large mass to cool. It’ll aerate and cool quite a bit just pumping it into the fermenter. Maybe pump it in, and just leave the door open overnight, and turn it on the next morning. Still gonna take a while

Good beer can’t be hurried, though.

Amen that's my first though what's the rush.
Remember a freezer is an awesome insulator.
I've fermented kviek at 40c in a freezer with outside single digital overnight temps easy. That's with a puny 60w heat belt...

So shutting all that heat in there will kill your freezer doing it this way eventually.

Let nature take its course.

Leave a 20lt bucket of water out for a couple of days measure the Temperature this is what your likely to achieve no chill.

 

[GFHomebrew]

I'll add just one more thought on chilling in general.
This is pretty much why I went no chill I've got an awesome Imersion coil which is very capable BTW.

OK so summertime ground water temp here in Aus is hovering 30c using an IC you'll get within 2c maybe 3c depending on how much water you wanna kill.
So without the use of an inline water chiller like an ice bath your getting to 33c.

So regardless if I leave it out to no chill over night or use an imersion chiller or plate chiller to force chill it I'm still gunna have to use a ferm chamber or glycol coil to send it the rest of the way down to pitch temp.

Winter time Imersion chilling works great so this is a summer time thing.

 

[RoadRoach]

I'll add just one more thought on chilling in general.
This is pretty much why I went no chill I've got an awesome Imersion coil which is very capable BTW.

OK so summertime ground water temp here in Aus is hovering 30c using an IC you'll get within 2c maybe 3c depending on how much water you wanna kill.
So without the use of an inline water chiller like an ice bath your getting to 33c.

So regardless if I leave it out to no chill over night or use an imersion chiller or plate chiller to force chill it I'm still gunna have to use a ferm chamber or glycol coil to send it the rest of the way down to pitch temp.

Winter time Imersion chilling works great so this is a summer time thing.

We’re flip-flopping weather with you guys at the mo. Night temperature in the mid teens (C) day temperature in the 20’s. My IC is nearly 50 feet of copper and does a good job, but as you say, summer water temperature makes it a quick drop down to about 30C, then it takes forever and tons of water to get it below 25C. Maybe I do a hybrid ‘sorta chill’ thing, then finish it overnight with the freezer. Right now, I can get down to about 28C pretty quickly, but thats still a bit hostile for S33 , US-05, and most Irish yeast. It only took a couple hours to drop the last batch from 76F down to 63F, so I figure I’ll be at pitch temperature by morning. Good info, thanks

 

[Ward Chillington]

It’ll aerate and cool quite a bit just pumping it into the fermenter

I would think that aeration at this point could....underline COULD introduce a wild yeast or a bacteria as I believe one of the best practices with no chill is to fill "the cube" all the way so to minimize that chance.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Airation is also better at cooler temps its more readily absorbed into solution just like co2.

Yea filling a cube and squeezing out the liquid is the best option for longterm wort storage.

In Aus you can buy fresh wort kits at the hombrew stores and just dump the wort Into the fermenter then top off to 21lt mark and your good to go.

This is how their packaged
https://www.australianhomebrewing.com.au/beer/brewing-ingredients/fresh-wort/

 

[Zambi]

I've done it. Worked OK, but I do different now.
Cool as much as I can (prob till something like 15 oC above cool water temp), then leave out to cool.
No longer got enough power to go to fridge or freezer (I run on solar).
OR
Go higher initial OG, cool till whatever is possible and use ice or cold water to bring to the OG you want (make sure water or ice is clean). Hopefully that brings you close to pitching temperature

 

[The Brew Mentor]

Airation is also better at cooler temps its more readily absorbed into solution just like co2.

Yea filling a cube and squeezing out the liquid is the best option for longterm wort storage.

In Aus you can buy fresh wort kits at the hombrew stores and just dump the wort Into the fermenter then top off to 21lt mark and your good to go.

This is how their packaged
https://www.australianhomebrewing.com.au/beer/brewing-ingredients/fresh-wort/

Talk about quick and easy if you're in a pinch!
Plus, you get the container.

 

[RoadRoach]

I would think that aeration at this point could....underline COULD introduce a wild yeast or a bacteria as I believe one of the best practices with no chill is to fill "the cube" all the way so to minimize that chance.

Possibly, but how are you going to avoid aeration when pitching, when aeration is EXACTLY what you do want. If we’re talking pasteurization temp while pumping, that sorta takes care of itself, but then when left to cool, it’ll become O2 depleted again Yeast needs O2 to do its thing. Which is why I come back to putting filtered air through it during the cooldown. I mean HEPA, already got my legs striped about filtering. Keeping a slight positive pressure on the vessel or cooling chamber SHOULD keep baddies out. If you pump air in, it’s gotta come out. Wort has to be aerated before fermentation, so why not while it’s cooling, particularly after putting it in a cooling chamber. Then when you’re at pitch temp, it’ll be ready to go. Still have to stir the pitch a bit, so I don’t get why a filtered aeration while cooling is a bad thing.

Lots of different ways to skin a cat.

 

[Sunfire96]

Possibly, but how are you going to avoid aeration when pitching, when aeration is EXACTLY what you do want. If we’re talking pasteurization temp while pumping, that sorta takes care of itself, but then when left to cool, it’ll become O2 depleted again Yeast needs O2 to do its thing. Which is why I come back to putting filtered air through it during the cooldown. I mean HEPA, already got my legs striped about filtering. Keeping a slight positive pressure on the vessel or cooling chamber SHOULD keep baddies out. If you pump air in, it’s gotta come out. Wort has to be aerated before fermentation, so why not while it’s cooling, particularly after putting it in a cooling chamber. Then when you’re at pitch temp, it’ll be ready to go. Still have to stir the pitch a bit, so I don’t get why a filtered aeration while cooling is a bad thing.

Lots of different ways to skin a cat.

Aeration of the wort above ~80'F is bad. Aeration of the wort below 80'F is good for yeast health.

 

[RoadRoach]

Aeration of the wort above ~80'F is bad. Aeration of the wort below 80'F is good for yeast health.

THAT is the info I was looking for, but didn’t quite know what to ask. Now, if you please, why? What does it do to the wort?

 

[Sunfire96]

Here's an article to get you started. Like other things in brewing, you can delve in as deep as you'd like, or stay at the surface level info. And there are many opinions out there between brewers. I will say through personal experience that I completely oxidized a batch of beer at 140' F by pouring it into another vessel from the kettle

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/amp/4vQFCvGmuD

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/boiling-and-cooling/cooling-the-wort

 

[Megary]

This is from Palmer (howtobrew link above). Bold is mine.

COOLING THE WORT
At the end of the boil, it is important to cool the wort quickly. While it is still hot, (above 140°F) bacteria and wild yeasts are inhibited. But it is very susceptible to oxidation damage as it cools. There are also the previously mentioned sulfur compounds that evolve from the wort while it is hot. If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer. The objective is to rapidly cool the wort to below 80°F before oxidation or contamination can occur.

Rapid cooling also forms the Cold Break. This is composed of another group of proteins that need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. Cold break, or rather the lack of it, is the cause of Chill Haze. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve. Only by rapid chilling from near-boiling to room temperature will the Cold Break proteins permanently precipitate and not cause Chill Haze. Chill haze is usually regarded as a cosmetic problem. You cannot taste it. However, chill haze indicates that there is an appreciable level of cold-break-type protein in the beer, which has been linked to long-term stability problems. Hazy beer tends to become stale sooner than non-hazy beer.


So... the obvious (rhetorical) question is: What is the definition of rapid cooling?
5 minutes?
30 minutes?
2 hours?

It takes me about 45 minutes to cool my wort in an ice bath. I'm guessing that this amount of time would not be considered "rapid".

 

[Sunfire96]

This is from Palmer (howtobrew link above). Bold is mine.

COOLING THE WORT
At the end of the boil, it is important to cool the wort quickly. While it is still hot, (above 140°F) bacteria and wild yeasts are inhibited. But it is very susceptible to oxidation damage as it cools. There are also the previously mentioned sulfur compounds that evolve from the wort while it is hot. If the wort is cooled slowly, dimethyl sulfide will continue to be produced in the wort without being boiled off; causing off-flavors in the finished beer. The objective is to rapidly cool the wort to below 80°F before oxidation or contamination can occur.

Rapid cooling also forms the Cold Break. This is composed of another group of proteins that need to be thermally shocked into precipitating out of the wort. Slow cooling will not affect them. Cold break, or rather the lack of it, is the cause of Chill Haze. When a beer is chilled for drinking, these proteins partially precipitate forming a haze. As the beer warms up, the proteins re-dissolve. Only by rapid chilling from near-boiling to room temperature will the Cold Break proteins permanently precipitate and not cause Chill Haze. Chill haze is usually regarded as a cosmetic problem. You cannot taste it. However, chill haze indicates that there is an appreciable level of cold-break-type protein in the beer, which has been linked to long-term stability problems. Hazy beer tends to become stale sooner than non-hazy beer.


So... the obvious (rhetorical) question is: What is the definition of rapid cooling?
5 minutes?
30 minutes?
2 hours?

It takes me about 45 minutes to cool my wort in an ice bath. I'm guessing that this amount of time would not be considered "rapid".

But compared to 12 hours of chilling overnight, 45 minutes seems rapid...I've definitely seen chill haze in my no chill brews, but I've also seen it in my brews chilled in 30-60 minutes using equipment. Definitely one of those, "whatever gets you good results" kind of things

 

[GFHomebrew]

Yeah I suppose there's other things like post ferment finnings you can use for colloidal stability.

I think oxidation could happen yet I see one of the big all in one American brewing producers use a spray jet on their return to the kettle.
I personally try to minimise it heck I use SMB and ascorbic acid in the mash to minimise it.

 

[RoadRoach]

Here's an article to get you started. Like other things in brewing, you can delve in as deep as you'd like, or stay at the surface level info. And there are many opinions out there between brewers. I will say through personal experience that I completely oxidized a batch of beer at 140' F by pouring it into another vessel from the kettle

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/amp/4vQFCvGmuD

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/boiling-and-cooling/cooling-the-wort

Same here, I always get splashing and foaming when I empty the kettle to the fermenter. Rarely is the temperature below 80F, as I typically make up volume in the fermenter with clean ice to finish dropping it to pitch temp. I’ll spend some time on the articles after a lovely lasagne and see how badly I’m hosing up my beer.