That sucks Steve especially if it's been in close succession your obviously doubting your brew methods. Stick in there mate id be thinking what I've done differently from other brews that's caused the infection.
Cooling Again!
- Thread starter Steve SPF
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Something else to consider Steve is the yeast. If I recall correctly you bought a brick of S-04, and split it into smaller measures. Maybe make a starter wort, and ferment it with some of this yeast and see if there is an issue with that.
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Ding!
I have only once got 2 uses out of 1 packet and did so by NOT repacking. I measured out 5.5 grams for the first batch and kept the other 5.5 for the next batch I brewed the following weekend and I taped off the leftover packet ..all in all the packet was open for less then a minute, inside, jn the winter and nothing other than air touched the yeast.
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Were you brewing a half batch, because 5.5g of dried yeast is a serious underpitch.
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No, and I guess that's a mis-step, but I clean it and sanitise it but I can see it as a possible source for sure.I use two stainless cooling coils and immerse both of those during the boil so am aware of using it as sanitiser, never done it with the pump.
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An interesting thought. Have to say that I've seen those bricks left open in fridges at pro breweries twice now so re-packing into vacuum pouches seemed very reasonable to me.
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An unknown for sure. Winter has been mild and spring is up and down but the brewshed gets pretty warm whn the sun shines.
Well, it looks like you have a couple of possibilities to sort through... My guess is that the first one to tackle would be the yeast since making a starter is a lot less labor intensive than conducting a whole brew. After that is out of the way (and hopefully tastes fine) then you can see about the others.
Good luck. Please let us know what you find as I am curious for sure now.
Good luck. Please let us know what you find as I am curious for sure now.
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@Blackmuse
Unfortunately i'm conducting a full size experiment right now because I have a stout in the fermenter that was brewed in the same way on the same kit.
The good news is that fermentation took off really well and it smells and tastes great at the moment.
Unfortunately i'm conducting a full size experiment right now because I have a stout in the fermenter that was brewed in the same way on the same kit.
The good news is that fermentation took off really well and it smells and tastes great at the moment.
That is good news! Here is to hoping!
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Oh so many factors could be causing this. But it is all part of the fun yes?! Assuming your sanitation is above and beyond awesome...
To start:
EXTRACT: at the beginning of my brew hobby I used extracts....I always ended up with an off flavor (flat or overly sweet or slightly sour) and could never figure out why. I have no insight here....getting away from extracts was why I switched to BIAB.
GRAINS: What grains are you using? I did a cream ale with something like 80% 6-row malt and had poor mash temp control (ended up going down to the low 140's by the end). During fermentation I took samples and they were cloudy and looked to be full of what I can only describe as a "snot" like substance and tasted slightly sour. I thought for sure it was infected but let the fermentation finish and then I finned with gelatin and cold crashed at 60f for a week, bottle conditioned for 4 weeks in my beer fridge. The flavor mellowed to a smooth but very subtly tart grainy flavour that everybody including my beer hating wife loved. I made a second batch and assumed it would be a different (because I swore I got an infection the first time) cream ale with 60% 6-row but better mash control and got much the same results during fermentation that mellowed to a great slightly tart very dry flavor to finish. NOW, I think it is the high ratio of the 6-row that gives it a slightly tart almost sour flavor during fermentation but conditions nicely. I have also found that old grains give odd flavors which include sour.
WATER: early on I was using tap water with campden tabs to get rid of the clorine. Still had odd flavors so I did a water test. Turns out my water had a higher than normal level of magnesium in it (which can cause a "sour" flavor). It was also unbalanced for some of the other minerals. I waited a month and tested again and got different levels of everything and learned that my tap water is just not as consistent as I want for making beer. LSS I switch to 100% RO and added brewing salts to customize the flavors I was going for. There is no comparison to how much better my beer is now.
HOPS: SMaSH (single malt and single hop) could do it. To my palate Motuka gives off a subtle lime flavor which I love but tastes sour to my wife. Old hops can make the beer taste stale. Check to make sure your hops are stored and sealed properly either when you buy them or store them.
YEAST: I find both S-04 and S-05 have a bit of a "sour" flavor to them if I taste a sample which is not done fermenting/before conditioning. I don't know why. The end product is not sour.
Don't give up my friend!! Solving these issues are how we get better!
To start:
EXTRACT: at the beginning of my brew hobby I used extracts....I always ended up with an off flavor (flat or overly sweet or slightly sour) and could never figure out why. I have no insight here....getting away from extracts was why I switched to BIAB.
GRAINS: What grains are you using? I did a cream ale with something like 80% 6-row malt and had poor mash temp control (ended up going down to the low 140's by the end). During fermentation I took samples and they were cloudy and looked to be full of what I can only describe as a "snot" like substance and tasted slightly sour. I thought for sure it was infected but let the fermentation finish and then I finned with gelatin and cold crashed at 60f for a week, bottle conditioned for 4 weeks in my beer fridge. The flavor mellowed to a smooth but very subtly tart grainy flavour that everybody including my beer hating wife loved. I made a second batch and assumed it would be a different (because I swore I got an infection the first time) cream ale with 60% 6-row but better mash control and got much the same results during fermentation that mellowed to a great slightly tart very dry flavor to finish. NOW, I think it is the high ratio of the 6-row that gives it a slightly tart almost sour flavor during fermentation but conditions nicely. I have also found that old grains give odd flavors which include sour.
WATER: early on I was using tap water with campden tabs to get rid of the clorine. Still had odd flavors so I did a water test. Turns out my water had a higher than normal level of magnesium in it (which can cause a "sour" flavor). It was also unbalanced for some of the other minerals. I waited a month and tested again and got different levels of everything and learned that my tap water is just not as consistent as I want for making beer. LSS I switch to 100% RO and added brewing salts to customize the flavors I was going for. There is no comparison to how much better my beer is now.
HOPS: SMaSH (single malt and single hop) could do it. To my palate Motuka gives off a subtle lime flavor which I love but tastes sour to my wife. Old hops can make the beer taste stale. Check to make sure your hops are stored and sealed properly either when you buy them or store them.
YEAST: I find both S-04 and S-05 have a bit of a "sour" flavor to them if I taste a sample which is not done fermenting/before conditioning. I don't know why. The end product is not sour.
Don't give up my friend!! Solving these issues are how we get better!
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Oh Yeah...I should have mentioned that...first couple of batches I ever made....I was using a 4 gallon soup pot I borrowed from Wifie and the cooler I used to use for camping trips
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Thanks for input folks, as ever, it's been interesting.
I've had the RO water thing offered up a few times now and the answer is the same. I use 120-140lt on brewday, my batches are 80-90 lt in the kettle. Water from anywhere but the tap just isn't going to happen. I see it as an impractical/impossible solution to any brewing problem I face.
I've never used an extract kit and my grains come in reasonable bulk with a decent shelf life. I like to think they're stored well enough, certainly no worse than the pro breweries I visit.
I like to think the hops are not an issue. I buy in bulk and re-package into vacuum pouches, get through them relatively quickly as well so they aren't hanging around for years.
A yeast problem would amaze me. I use S04 and US05 and feel like I'm familiar with the way they do their thing. I'm not an expert, not by a stretch, but I'm not brewing on the kitchen stove and fermentation temps are spot on. We did have the conversation around re-hydrating dried yeast and, to be fair, the advice from Safale was conflicting so if I made a mistake there it was an honest one.
This is the batch I had to re-pitch and I just wonder if it was telling me a tale at that stage and I just wasn't listening?
I think questioning your own hygiene is a bit like questioning your own golf swing; you think you have it down pat and just sort of look past it for problems elsehwhere.
I have a stout in the fermenter (same fermenter) now and so far it seems healthy. I think what changed was a bit of attention to the fittings in the kettle inbetween brews this time. My logic has always been that everything in the kettle is boiled, and therefore sanitised, so my cleaning there has been less than it should have been. I found some accumulated crud in the elbow at the sight glass fitting and the back of the ball lock.
I've never taken fittings off the vessels before, now I'm going through all the vessels and stripping them down. I will put all the fittings through the dishwasher in the house and then sanitise before re-fitting.
I've had the RO water thing offered up a few times now and the answer is the same. I use 120-140lt on brewday, my batches are 80-90 lt in the kettle. Water from anywhere but the tap just isn't going to happen. I see it as an impractical/impossible solution to any brewing problem I face.
I've never used an extract kit and my grains come in reasonable bulk with a decent shelf life. I like to think they're stored well enough, certainly no worse than the pro breweries I visit.
I like to think the hops are not an issue. I buy in bulk and re-package into vacuum pouches, get through them relatively quickly as well so they aren't hanging around for years.
A yeast problem would amaze me. I use S04 and US05 and feel like I'm familiar with the way they do their thing. I'm not an expert, not by a stretch, but I'm not brewing on the kitchen stove and fermentation temps are spot on. We did have the conversation around re-hydrating dried yeast and, to be fair, the advice from Safale was conflicting so if I made a mistake there it was an honest one.
This is the batch I had to re-pitch and I just wonder if it was telling me a tale at that stage and I just wasn't listening?
I think questioning your own hygiene is a bit like questioning your own golf swing; you think you have it down pat and just sort of look past it for problems elsehwhere.
I have a stout in the fermenter (same fermenter) now and so far it seems healthy. I think what changed was a bit of attention to the fittings in the kettle inbetween brews this time. My logic has always been that everything in the kettle is boiled, and therefore sanitised, so my cleaning there has been less than it should have been. I found some accumulated crud in the elbow at the sight glass fitting and the back of the ball lock.
I've never taken fittings off the vessels before, now I'm going through all the vessels and stripping them down. I will put all the fittings through the dishwasher in the house and then sanitise before re-fitting.
You beauty built up crud sounds like a potential infection harborage hmm I'd better go give my kettle a once over as I'm of the same mind as you there steve
.I like to run hot sodium perc through the kettle pump hosses ect for awhile and or even let it sit over night to try and combat crud build up.
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On brew day I've been putting the chiller in and turning the pump back on with 15 to go. Like you said boiling hot wort for 10mins should reduce any infection risk.@Trialben
Been thinking about the pump as a possible source myself as well. Again, I like to think I put it away clean but what I think and the reality can clearly be very different things
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This is the inside of the kettle camlock after it's been through the dishwasher twice
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Oh Sweet Moses.
That should give us all pause and make us rethink if we are doing enough to keep things clean and sanitized. Thanks for sharing @Steve SPF!
Cheers.
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If you're using the same pump for hot and warm (mash) transfers/recirculation, not a factor. There's not enough time for the mash to "contaminate" and running near-boiling wort through the pump will sanitize it. Unless you're running cold wort through it, I don't see the pump as a possible source of contamination.@Trialben
Been thinking about the pump as a possible source myself as well. Again, I like to think I put it away clean but what I think and the reality can clearly be very different things
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Good Lord!
Do you have PBW, or Oxy Clean?
If so, heat some water up to near boiling, mix in one of the above as recommended (they work much better hot).
Let it soak for a half hour or so, then pump it out into a bucket.
I personally mix up 5 gallons of this in my kettle after brew day, heat, recirculate through the pump, then let it sit for at least 30 minutes.
I then rinse with super hot water.
Anytime I take anything apart after this it is usually clean.
Do you have PBW, or Oxy Clean?
If so, heat some water up to near boiling, mix in one of the above as recommended (they work much better hot).
Let it soak for a half hour or so, then pump it out into a bucket.
I personally mix up 5 gallons of this in my kettle after brew day, heat, recirculate through the pump, then let it sit for at least 30 minutes.
I then rinse with super hot water.
Anytime I take anything apart after this it is usually clean.
