Brewer's yeast as yeast nutrient

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by pazu, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    I am preparing a yeast starter. I read that among other things, dead yeast can be used as a yeast nutrient, but I have never tried it (intentionally). I have some 'debittered brewers yeast', nutritional yeast that can be eaten and I am mulling over adding some to my starter. Anyone see good or bad results from doing that? Not sure how much I would add, maybe 1/4 teaspoon for starting a 6 gallon brew?

    I wanted to try making the nutrients in my starter in the same proportions and sugars as in my wort. This brought up the question, if I add debittered brewer's yeast to the starter, shouldn't I add it to the wort as well? Any thoughts? Thanks!
     
  2. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    As far as I know most yeast nutrient packages contain vitamins and minerals. I would not want a second type of yeast interfering with the main yeast. I'd just spend the $5 at the LHBS for the certified beer yeast nutrient - which is specially formulated for best results with beer.
     
  3. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    I'll refrain from using it. W L cali ale yeast has been in the fridge for about 7 days, I hope to get a starter going this afternoon.
     
  4. LarryBrewer

    LarryBrewer Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,728
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    By the looks of your profile picture, you have already! You may want to cover the starter with foil, that keeps the germs out but lets oxygen in which improves yeast growth.
     
  5. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    What? What do you mean I should do with the foil? Put it over the airlock?

    Yeah you got me, I'm into the fray now man! Wooooot! I just hope something, some, thing, happens in that flask overnight.

    I was watching it for awhile, boring so I set up a camera to take timelapse video of it. It will take a shot every 5 minutes, over a 28 hour span. I have a LED clock & LED thermometer in the field of view. Should be able to get a feel for the relationship between time temperature and yeast activity. I just don't know what to expect, never done a starter before.

    I screwed up only one thing ('course it only takes 1 thing, to screw up). I hadn't thought to have some vodka or similar on hand for the airlock, so I put some water that I had boiled, into there. I put some salt in the airlock water first, was out of time and had to make a decision so I went for a brine airlock, is that crazy?

    The other thing I could kick myself for, I was loosely following along someone's guide to yeast starters, they indicated how much water to start with, how much extract to add, and how long to boil for a certain specific gravity end result. I figured it was all going to plan until I realized that without knowing how much energy he had put into the boil, and matching that, there was no way I was going to hit the same specific gravity that he hit. So, I've probably boiled off too much water. Also, I did not use all of the liquid yeast I had, in the morning I want to begin a second, smaller starter batch with the remaining 1/3. If that works I'll have a backup if my first pitch doesn't take off. That's the plan.

    Oh also I put a bit, only 2 pellets of Magnum hops into the starter. & it was a half cup comprised of the sugars I will use, in a rough proportion to what the wort will be, except that I haven't prepared the invert sugar yet.
     
  6. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    you really don't need that much to start with, I grow yeast and store it for my self and save it in a slurry form in the fridge for future beers, Ill explain how some time in the future.
    watch this, he explains the basics

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMhFerNTwbQ

    this is rare Im trying a new breed Pacman dry , one im feeding daily for my Tuesday brew day, Im on the third day

    [​IMG]
     
  7. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    Wow that looks great! How interesting that you feed daily, so you boil up a glass of wort water and add it daily? Cool vid, thanks watching it now. Now I see what Larry meant by the aluminum foil. That stirrer is pretty cool. Nothing happening in my starter, I wonder if the yeast is dead. I swirled it around a bit. From comparing the video, I have about the same amount of liquid. Good to know!
     
  8. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    I boil 2 gallons at a time and store it in the fridge, then after 1 day on the stir plate put the flask in the fridge over night, the next day decant the liquid and fill more wort and start over again
     
  9. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    Awesome, of course, 'brew smarter' :) Thank you for sharing the tip.
     
  10. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    also easy to make a stir plate once you spend a week fine tuning it lol

    [​IMG]
     
  11. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    Now THAT, is really amazing. LIking your approach QHB that is quite the innovation!
     
  12. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    Update: Yeast status ok, mild yet distinct blooming going on this morning. 69F.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    now just keep swirling it every hour or so to keep the yeast from eating, you just want to replicate now but good to know they are alive
     
  14. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    I ordered a stirring plate from the youtube link you sent, QHB.

    Keep the yeast from eating, I do not understand it.

    Another thing that I do not understand, is the use of aluminum foil. Clearly it's a proven strategy, but why not just use an airlock, I don't see the net gain of aluminum foil.

    I don't get how the stir plate adds oxygen. Is it breaking it out of water molecules and into solution in the water, i.e. the O2 is already in there, or is something completely different happening, any theories?

    The flask atmosphere is full of CO2 and other yeast outgas, and there's probably stratified gasses with a fat pillow of CO2 right at the liquid surface. Unless the vortex of the stirrer is stirring the atmo in the flask as well.

    I'm *really* liking the idea of displacing the original air volume in the starter, with O2 and then stirring. Will be fun to find out what happens then.

    I'll do as you suggest & swirl it!

    Oh yeah, and something I hadn't mentioned, when I ordered the liquid yeast, there was an option to add a cold pack. Thinking it would have been an 'extra' cold pack for good measure, I forewent it, resulting in the yeast being shipped at room temp. Thought I had blown it there, but seem to have skated through again :lol:
     
  15. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    first always order the cold pack with liquid yeast, it insures the yeast can survive shipping temperatures which could exceed 90 degrees

    the foil just blocks anything going in like bugs or germs and is easy to form and sanitize, it lets the flask pull in air if needed by the whirl pool which pulls in oxygen to the yeast, the stirring keeps the yeast suspended and from producing alcohol, we want the yeast to see the sugar, replicate stay dormant and don't consume enough to create alcohol.

    hint the white layer on top is the yeast starting to ferment, nice to know its alive and kicking but we want to stop that from happening until its time to really ferment so we need to swirl to keep the white layer down on the bottom
     
  16. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    So you work your yeast for 6 days, adding to it daily. I am hoping to do this in one shot, and I can let the yeast decide the brew day, maybe tomorrow. I can't get yeast nutrient for the main batch today, already tried. Making up the invert sugar went well.

    I am still swirling it every hour or so that I am home, and there is still activity. Tentative plan, put it in the fridge late tonight then maybe pitch tomorrow afternoon.
     
  17. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    if your brewing soon, do not put it in the fridge. it will take too long to wake up. keep swirling and more often maybe
     
  18. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    Okay. I was thinking that it would settle in there so that I could separate out the funk water from the yeast? It will be better when I've got the stirrer plate, I will try to swirl more frequently though. I'm not clear as to what will indicate that this is ready to pitch. Without the refrigeration step for separation, I can just wait until reaction signs cease, let it settle until the yeast is in a sediment layer, then pour off the liquid.
     

    Attached Files:

    • 39h.jpg
      39h.jpg
      File size:
      87.9 KB
      Views:
      782
  19. Ozarks Mountain Brew

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    7,767
    Likes Received:
    3,976
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT Managment
    Location:
    The Ozark Mountains of Missouri
    your at high kerosene now, it will not settle down, you will need to stir stir stir or put it in the fridge or pitch it now, its ready now,

    you will not be able to decant that water without cooling the flask down to 36 for at least 24 hours otherwise you will pour out yeast
     
  20. pazu

    pazu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    I live in New Hampshire, USA, forest by the lake
    I'm.. not. ready, I can wrap a wet cloth around it and a baggie with ice, to get the temp down a ways until tomorrow?

    I could theoretically pitch in as little as 2 or 3 hours, but without the key ingredient of yeast nutrient, and I would have to skip the oxygen enhancement.

    I'm using ultralight extract, the kit also has 2 lbs rice extract, and I'm adding 2 lbs of invert sugar so, this is dangerously lite on the malt. I think the added risk factor of no yeast nutrient, might be too much. While I'm at the LBS I will get dry malt extract, I need at least 1/3 cup to make up for what I took out to make the starter, thought I would add half a pound on top of that, to sort of balance out all of that the invert sugar. The natural invert sugar is a nice color, I think it will deepen the beer color enough.

    How long does starter that went into the fridge at high K, actually take to wake up once it's out of there?

    I will have to delay brew day a bit it seems, to get that liquid separated out and then the yeast back to room temp again.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page

arrow_white