Bochet Braggot

Discussion in 'Recipes for Feedback' started by Laegrim, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. Laegrim

    Laegrim New Member

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    Looking to do iteration #2 of a bochet braggot, and I was hoping for some feedback from y'all on the adjustments I've made to the recipe, and in general, before I trek to my LHBS.

    Iteration #1 (notes at bottom of recipe): https://www.brewersfriend.com/homeb...s-yeast-scream-v1-bochet-braggot-w-hornindal-
    Iteration #2: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homeb...s-yeast-scream-v2-bochet-braggot-w-hornindal-

    I very much enjoyed Iteration #1, but noticed that the raw/smoked honey character didn't come through at all, and the biggest feedback I got was that it was texturally an unhappy medium between mead and beer; so I've dumped the raw/smoked honey in iteration #2, increased the amount of grain in relation to honey, and added a fair amount of flaked oats.

    Thoughts? I'd also be interested in any other hop/hop combinations suggestions that might fit this recipe, and if anyone has any experience using juniper berries (I have a couple locally harvested lbs sitting in my freezer I'm halfway eyeing) I'd love to hear about it.
     
  2. Laegrim

    Laegrim New Member

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    So, no love for braggots around here?

    Ended up brewing iteration #2 on Friday, and it mostly went well. Pitched a little high (~99f), and the yeast ended up driving that up to 102f about 12 hrs later, but as of 48 hours after pitch I'm letting the temperature drop on it's own. I'll update as I take readings and taste, just for completeness's sake.

    For the future, what can I do to get more of a response around there?
     
  3. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, not familiar with braggot.
     
  4. Head First

    Head First Well-Known Member

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    Lots of hop fans here. Keep us posted though, as all beer is good beer. A few people do sours, but braggots are not that common. It's allways interesting to hear how things go when brewing.
    CHEERS
     
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  5. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Mead and beer. I know what it is, can't say I've ever had one I'd pay to drink.
     
  6. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I read your post, but I honestly have no idea what a braggot is, also pretty new to brewing (2 years), so I am only good at beginner advice.
    Welcome to Brewers Friend!
     
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  7. Iliff Avenue Brewhouse

    Iliff Avenue Brewhouse Well-Known Member

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    #7 Iliff Avenue Brewhouse, Mar 16, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
    My buddy makes a really nice braggot but I have no experience with them myself. A local brewery just put one on as well but it's cloyingly sweet.

    As far as getting responses, I too have trouble with that sometimes. It's just the way it goes. I moved over here from another forum due to lack of responses but it hasn't been much different. At the old forum I could delete posts which was helpful when no one would respond. You can't do that here. I will say that the people here are pretty awesome though...
     
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  8. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    Ditto Thunderwagn: Not much experience with braggot. Just general experience with brewer's yeast: 102 degrees F is getting into a range where you risk killing the yeast.

    Also, if you hang around a while you'll find we generally don't tend to ramble on about things we don't know. Braggot may be one of those, it's not an extremely popular drink in the Denver area, don't know about the rest of the world. Maybe if we don't respond it's that we don't know, and aren't making s*** up? We're not clickish or clannish, maybe we just know what we don't know?
     
  9. Laegrim

    Laegrim New Member

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    Fair enough, I was just surprised that I hadn't gotten any response whatsoever. I know my first couple of posts needed mod approval, and I was a little worried there was still some hangup or issue with my post.

    That said, thanks for the responses y'all! I knew braggots weren't common, but I guess I've underestimated exactly how uncommon they are. Hopefully I can help add to that body of knowledge.

    On the yeast, it definitely got a little hotter than I wanted - but not by that much fortunately. Omega gives 98f as their upper range, and there's a couple reports I've found of other people hitting higher temps, so I've got hope. Kviek is amazing stuff.
     
  10. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    We would certainly appreciate your additions. I have no plans to do a braggot any time soon but there may be some here who want to.
     
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  11. ^Tony^

    ^Tony^ Active Member

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    I had never heard of a braggot until I had a braggot IPA this past weekend from one of the microbreweries in my area (not sure if I should post the name of the brewery or the beer here but it is available in local stores and is a collaboration with a meadery in the region.) O! M! G! It was fantastic. I have tasted over 1232 different beers over the last few years (I have an app that keeps track :p) and I have nothing to compare it to at the moment but out of all those beers this is now my all time specialty favorite. I have been trying to figure out how to meld a nice white wine flavor with a nice clean beer for the last few years but could not quite figure it out. It never occurred to me to use honey. Now, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to make something like this braggot myself.

    Laegrim: let me know how it goes. I have a source for some local "urban honey" from an acquaintance who is an hobby bee keeper and I have been working on a recipe over the last week. I will be brewing a braggot at some point this brew season.

    Comments for your recipe: I tend to go simple for my brews. I have never used Vienna for anything more than a complimentary malt so I can't really comment there. For mine, I was thinking simple 2-row or a pils malt and some honey malt with a touch of caramel munich 60 to see if I can take some of the twang off the honey. If I were to take yours and offer an opinion; perhaps consider dropping the Belgian malts and adding a Honey malt instead. The oats I am neutral on but I may add them to my recipe. Personally, I don't like smoked/rauchbier anything so I will be avoiding the smoked honey.

    Have you considered using a white wine yeast/ale yeast mix? When I DO make a braggot I think I will go with Belle Saison yeast to see if I can add a little bit of spice to it or maybe the Belle Saison with something like Lalvin D-47.

    I like EK Goldings for saisons but have never used Willamette hops. The flavor profile seems like it would go very well with a braggot. Consider swapping the Willamette to Nelson Sauvin. For my attempt I think I will use Hallertau Blanc and Nelson Sauvin to see if I can emphasis more of a tart fruity flavor than either pure honey or beer malts.

    Thanks for starting this string and cheers to thinking outside the box (or going uber traditional depending on your point of view!)
     
  12. Laegrim

    Laegrim New Member

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    I meant to update this thread a while ago with some results: there's plenty of room for improvement in v3, but it turned out pretty good overall.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    OG: 1.1, FG:1.032

    The Good:
    • This turned out to be a fairly good Wee Heavy - not what I was aiming for, but certainly drinkable. It's full bodied, sweet without being overly cloying, with intense caramel maltiness, dark fruit flavors, and a subtly smooth herbal bitterness.
    • The changes I made to the recipe from v1, to address the lack of body and thin mouthfeel (adding flaked oats and boiling down ~1 gal of first runnings into a thick syrup), definitely worked.
    • EKG and Willamette are delicious in combination, and worked wonderfully in this brew.
    The Bad:
    • I ended up with a stuck fermentation - 1.032 is not where this was supposed to stop. It's not quite as sweet as that FG suggests, since a good portion of the residual sugars are the unfermentable caramelization byproducts from the bochet and reduced first runnings, but it's still a dessert. I was hoping this would finish up in the mid-to-high teens.
    • There's an ever so slight minerally/metallic taste, especially noticeable if it's served on the cold end, that could be attributed to one or more of stressed yeast, residual yeast nutrient, the reduced first runnings, or too much in the way of mineral additions.
    • Friends and family keep asking for more of this stuff, and now I'm almost out.
    What Went Wrong and The Plan For Next Time:
    • Pay more attention to temperature during primary: This sounds, and is, pretty obvious. My temperatures climbed a little higher than is recommended for Hornindal Kveik, peaking at around 102f, and I took the heating pad off too early to compensate. Hornindal is a beast, but there's still such a thing as pushing it too far. As yeast stressors go this is a clear culprit, and being a bit more careful next time should go a long way towards avoiding another stuck fermentation.
    • Stagger sugar additions: Between the bochet and the reduced first runnings I'm adding a lot of sugar early on for this yeast. Kveik is supposed to be able to handle this sort of situation like a champ, and did on v1, but adding the sugars in batches (with the second addition 24-48 hours after pitch) might also help reduce stress.
    • Reduce a smaller portion of first runnings: 1gal reduced first runnings to a final volume of 4.5 gal in the fermenter certainly made for an intense braggot, but it's a little much. I'll probably half the amount of runnings I reduce in v3.
    • Mash a little lower: The changes to v1 intended to address the thin body and mouthfeel definitely worked, but maybe went a little overboard. Along with reducing the proportions of first runnings syrup to final volume, mashing a little lower, say at 154, might move things towards a happy medium.
    • Use a little more yeast nutrient: Another culprit for the stuck fermentation might have been a lack of nutrietnts - kveik is well known to be a nutrient hog. Adding some extra nutrients at the 24hr mark (probably more Fermaid O, I've had good experiences with the stuff, and maybe along with the staggered sugar addtion) could be a good idea. If this was the source of the metallic taste, it should be readily apparent.
    • Think about underpitching: v1 was underpitched and did just fine, maybe that's part of the solution to my stuck ferment issue. Omega and the community seem to have wildly divergent views on this topic.
    • Reduce mineral additions to the water slightly: Just in case this is, at least in part, a culprit for that off flavor.
    ----------------------------------------

    @^Tony^, it looks like you want to take yours in a very different direction than I took mine - I didn't end up with anything even remotely white wine-like. I'd love to know where you had that braggot you're using as a reference!

    If you want to end up with a lighter final product, but get rid of the honey twang, the two things that come to mind immediately are doing a very light bochet (which will take the edge off the honey, but also destroy any nuance), or letting your braggot cask/keg/bottle condition for a good while (>6 months) as is normal for mead. I don't have any experience trying what you're going for though, so maybe just adding some caramel or darker malts will do the trick. Only experimentation will tell.

    I probably wouldn't use the honey malt though, it seems like it'd either get lost or end up covering up the actual honey flavors you want to express. As for the oats, they're only in my recipe to enhance body and head retention; part of the reason I needed to compensate for those factors is that I'm using Kveik, which lowers the PH farther than normal and can result in a thinner beer (or the perception of a thinner beer) than would otherwise be obtained. Adding a lot of simple sugars (honey) is going to result in a lighter body, so some oats might help you if that's not desirable, but you might not have enough of a problem that it requires correction.

    The smoked honey was an experiment from v1, but it got lost next to the dark malts and bochet; I couldn't taste it at all in the final braggot. V2 didn't include the smoked honey, and I probably won't add it again into a bochet; it might be good to add a subtle smokey edge in a lighter braggot though - and it's really good on it's own (even if it's kind of a pain to make).

    I can't say I'm a huge fan of Saison phenol spiciness, but if that's your thing I have to imagine it'd go pretty well in a lighter braggot. I've got no idea how much of the white wine flavor is determined by white wine yeasts, or what it would contribute to a braggot, so I can't help you there; maybe use some white grape must if that's the flavor you want to emphasize? Just spit-balling.

    Since I'm still fairly new to homebrewing there're plenty of hops I haven't had a chance to use - Hallertau Blanc and Nelson Sauvin among them. All I can say is that Willamette on it's own and in combination with EKG work really well in a darker braggot.

    Definitely post an update with whatever you try, I'd love to hear how your experiments turn out!
     
  13. thunderwagn

    thunderwagn Well-Known Member

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    Well it certainly looks delicious! Thanks for coming back with the update. Smoked honey sounds interesting.
     
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  14. Megary

    Megary Well-Known Member

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    That’s a great review. Thanks for the post.
     
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  15. Blackmuse

    Blackmuse Well-Known Member

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    You know, BF is always asking for folks who want to write up a column for the BLOG - after reading your report here I think maybe you should write up a column on Braggot - what it is, how to make and so on. - It could be a cool addition to the BLOG!
     
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  16. ^Tony^

    ^Tony^ Active Member

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    Ditto from me Laegrim! You have way more experience with braggots and I'd love to learn more! I think BF could greatly benefit from some columns on specific beers styles and some tips to brew them.
     
  17. ^Tony^

    ^Tony^ Active Member

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    @Laegrim
    The beer is available publicly so perhaps it is not taboo. The beer is called "Lawyers Guns and Honey" and brewed at a local micro-brewery named Bent Stick Brewing Co. It was a sessional collaboration with a meadery in the region. If you can find a bottle you'll see why it inspired me! I prefer lighter beer styles which is why I was leaning more to the light side of things. I just can't seem to really enjoy a dark beer...they tend to taste burnt to me.

    I was thinking of about a 3 to 6 month bottle condition. Much like a meed, I think braggots get better with age. I fully intend to sample at regular time intervals to "test" my theory. :D

    Hmmmmm. Good thought. I've never been a huge fan of oats but maybe I will add 2-3% carapils to help with body and head retention. Great idea! I put honey malt in just about everything. I may leave it in for the first batch and take it out for the send just to see what happens.

    I thought about using grape must but I have no experience with it so far (although I've tasted a saison made with grape must that is pretty dang delicious). It may find its way into later versions depending on what the yeast does or does not do.

    I rarely use common hops (Saaz, Citra, etc.). I like unique flavors so I experiment with uncommon combinations. I made a cream ale using New Zealand Motueka hops. It turned out to have a nice subtle lime accent and a crisp lageresk finish that I just loved!

    As for more answers...feel free to message me directly on this site (I believe there is a group conversation feature). I love talking about just about anything brewing!
    PS:Don't post with no pants on to try to get a few more responses...it won't help... I tried once and all I got was stuck to the leather office chair :oops:
     
  18. Blackmuse

    Blackmuse Well-Known Member

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    That is an amazing beer name! I usually shy away from such things but it is a brilliant allusion and play on words!
     
  19. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    Bent stick you say.... I feel like that name is familiar for some reason.
     
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  20. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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