Bitter Brews

[JWR_12]

Thanks everyone: one quick question to follow up on something @Minbari said. My beer was OG 1.048 and ended up reaching FG 1.006, which if I understand is quite dry, unable to balance the hops / bitterness.

What can I do to keep the beer from going that dry? I’m guessing you can’t stop yeast from doing what it’s going to do, so would that happen on the mashing side (more unfermentable sugars) etc.? I’m guessing I should shoot for a FG of like 1.010 if I’m trying to also have hoppier flavors? This beer was my attempt at an American pale ish type thing.

As a slight PS to everything, I’m drinking a bottle of said bitter beer right now and while it is definitely a little bitter, it’s not undrinkable like the one last night. So I’m thinking the one last night could also just have been off somehow.

 

[Minbari]

Thanks everyone: one quick question to follow up on something @Minbari said. My beer was OG 1.048 and ended up reaching FG 1.006, which if I understand is quite dry, unable to balance the hops / bitterness.

What can I do to keep the beer from going that dry? I’m guessing you can’t stop yeast from doing what it’s going to do, so would that happen on the mashing side (more unfermentable sugars) etc.? I’m guessing I should shoot for a FG of like 1.010 if I’m trying to also have hoppier flavors? This beer was my attempt at an American pale ish type thing.

Generally, if you mash at less than 148F, you will get a much more fermentable wort. Doing a mash at 155 or a step mash where you start at 147F and move up to a higher temp, will make it less fermentable and finish at a higher FG

I know you said you goofed and let it get to 170(would have served as a mashout), but what was it before that?

Even 1.015 or 1.020 would be OK, would give a sweeter finish

 

[GFHomebrew]

Thanks everyone: one quick question to follow up on something @Minbari said. My beer was OG 1.048 and ended up reaching FG 1.006, which if I understand is quite dry, unable to balance the hops / bitterness.

What can I do to keep the beer from going that dry? I’m guessing you can’t stop yeast from doing what it’s going to do, so would that happen on the mashing side (more unfermentable sugars) etc.? I’m guessing I should shoot for a FG of like 1.010 if I’m trying to also have hoppier flavors? This beer was my attempt at an American pale ish type thing.

Mashing high will finish high.
Changing your grist to include more Munich malt or Vienna or a touch of honey malt could help too.
Adding some calcium Chloride will also round out the mouthfeel for you and mute that bitterness a little. Eg make sure your water profile favours Calcium Chloride 2:1 sulphates

 

[The Brew Mentor]

You can also use a less attenuative yeast strain.

 

[Craigerrr]

I would still say that your hop schedule isn't the culprit.
.5 Cascade (I think 7 AA) 50 minutes
.5 Motueka (like 5 aa) 20 mins
.5 Cascade (20 mins)
.5 Motueka (steeping).
In a 3 gallon 5% batch IBU's should be approximately 48, with a BU/GU of 1.07, relatively moderate
Brew Mentor makes a good point about leaving it to condition in the fridge for a couple of weeks before making any "recipe" changes.
Fort your process though, definitely take care of chlorine/chloromine if you are on municipal water.
Mash a little higher as others have suggested, and or use, say S-04 which will finish a little higher as well.
Every light colored beer I brew requires some degree of acid to bring the mash pH down.
You can trust the software prediction of pH, and adjust accordingly with acidulated malt, or lactic acid, you don't need a pH meter to make great beer.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Thanks everyone: one quick question to follow up on something @Minbari said. My beer was OG 1.048 and ended up reaching FG 1.006, which if I understand is quite dry, unable to balance the hops / bitterness.

What can I do to keep the beer from going that dry? I’m guessing you can’t stop yeast from doing what it’s going to do, so would that happen on the mashing side (more unfermentable sugars) etc.? I’m guessing I should shoot for a FG of like 1.010 if I’m trying to also have hoppier flavors? This beer was my attempt at an American pale ish type thing.

1.010 is nice for dry. 1.014 or 1.015 for a nice mouthfeel without being really sweet. A base malt with 4 or 5% crystal 40 or something close would work with a higher mash temp, even with S-05. I did it by accident on one of my first beers and ended up at 1.015. It was a pretty good mistake.

 

[Bigbre04]

Hi! So it was a 4.5 gallon boil that yielded 3 gallons into the fermenter after an hour of boiling. I used 6 1/2 lbs of malts (5 lbs two row, 1 lb Vienna, 1/2 pound Munich). I mashed at 2 quarts/ lb., topping off with water (tap water all the way). I used 2 oz of hops on this schedule:

.5 Cascade (I think 7 AA) 50 minutes
.5 Motueka (like 5 aa) 20 mins
.5 Cascade (20 mins)
.5 Motueka (steeping).

I chilled it down with a chiller (about 20 mins).

SAF Ale 05 yeast.

Fermentation was slow.

I like the taste at wort stage, but now in bottles it's gotten bitter.

60min-15min will add bitterness
15min-0min will add flavor
5min-180F Whirlpool will add aroma and some flavor without bitterness.

These overlap, but I tend to think of them like this with heavier additions going later as they become less effecient as far as IBU.

You could add lactose, Mash at a higher temp(145-150 will yeild a drier beer, 151-156 will be sweeter), Use a different yeast, etc.

 

[Craigerrr]

@Bigbre04
Sorry, but I disagree with whirlpool/hopstand hops not adding bitterness. Depending on temperature and time, they do add bitterness. For instance with a Hazy beer that gets no boil hops the bitterness, albeit low, comes from the WP/HS additions. I don't use the brewing software here, but Brewfather for instance calculates IBU contributions based on amount of hops, AA's, temperature, and time.

 

[Bigbre04]

@Bigbre04
Sorry, but I disagree with whirlpool/hopstand hops not adding bitterness. Depending on temperature and time, they do add bitterness. For instance with a Hazy beer that gets no boil hops the bitterness, albeit low, comes from the WP/HS additions. I don't use the brewing software here, but Brewfather for instance calculates IBU contributions based on amount of hops, AA's, temperature, and time.

They will add some bitterness, but it's very minimal and drops off to almost nothing at 180.

I should have clarified that.

The batches that I have brewed with exclusively 0min to 180f hops plus dryhop ended up being juicy and fruity with almost no perceived bitterness. I found them to be almost too sweet for my taste. That is why I generally add some hops for bittering to balance the sweet fruit flavor. Generally a few ounces between 15mins and 5 will yield the desired bitterness while not being overpowering.

 

[Craigerrr]

Not to argue, or belabor a point, but...
The batch I brewed Saturday with 168 grams (6oz) of hops in ant 80C (176F) whirlpool yields a theoretical 35IBU with no boil additions.

Does the Brewers Friend software calculate hop stand IBU's?
I haven't used it for at least a few years now.

 

[Bigbre04]

Not to argue, or belabor a point, but...
The batch I brewed Saturday with 168 grams (6oz) of hops in ant 80C (176F) whirlpool yields a theoretical 35IBU with no boil additions.

Does the Brewers Friend software calculate hop stand IBU's?
I haven't used it for at least a few years now.

View attachment 27564

Brewers friends calculator says the utilization at 180 is something like 3.5% or less. I did a batch with all post boil and it was close to 7#s/bbl including dryhop it had almost no bitterness to me. It ended up being around 45ibu in an 8.2% abv ipa.

Not belaboring the point at all man! We are all learning!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

this site has gone to a custom utilization, so the ibu is not set in stone, you customize it to your needs, it has defaults at the bottom of the hop addition that you can change

 

[Craigerrr]

this site has gone to a custom utilization, so the ibu is not set in stone, you customize it to your needs, it has defaults at the bottom of the hop addition that you can change

Interesting, I just looked at Brewfather settings and tools, I don't see any way to adjust utilization.
Comparing what I make to commercial examples that are similar, I would say that the IBU's I get from WP/HS are reasonably accurate.
I am curious what the purpose is of changing that setting, and how changing that setting in the software would affect your real world results?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

Interesting, I just looked at Brewfather settings and tools, I don't see any way to adjust utilization.
Comparing what I make to commercial examples that are similar, I would say that the IBU's I get from WP/HS are reasonably accurate.
I am curious what the purpose is of changing that setting, and how changing that setting in the software would affect your real world results?

because ibu's are relative and can't be defined perfectly to each person

 

[Bigbre04]

Interesting, I just looked at Brewfather settings and tools, I don't see any way to adjust utilization.
Comparing what I make to commercial examples that are similar, I would say that the IBU's I get from WP/HS are reasonably accurate.
I am curious what the purpose is of changing that setting, and how changing that setting in the software would affect your real world results?

I just use the default settings for utilization and have brewed the the same grain bill(basically) several times and have noticed a big difference between the just straight late addition and adding some at the end of boil.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Craigerrr]

because ibu's are relative and can't be defined perfectly to each perso

I understand that completely, much like hot sauce, one person's medium, is another person's hot, and yet someone else's mild.
But the sauce is the sauce, calling it hot, or mild doesn't change what it is, or how it is perceived.
Maybe I should leave this alone, but I am just trying to understand.
Obviously software can't 100% accurately predict actual IBU's, but it will be close enough for our purposes.
It just seems odd to me that if you like a 50 IBU beer, why would you change the utilization to call it a 70 IBU beer, or a 30 IBU beer.
Isn't the scale, the scale, and what is different is our perception of bitterness?

 

[Craigerrr]

I just use the default settings for utilization and have brewed the the same grain bill(basically) several times and have noticed a big difference between the just straight late addition and adding some at the end of boil.

Just my 2 cents

100%, there is a difference in IBU contribution between flame out, and a hop stand additions
I think that there would also be a difference in the IBU contribution of the flame out addition between a batch that received a hop stand, and one that was chilled right after flameout... I think

 

[Bigbre04]

I understand that completely, much like hot sauce, one person's medium, is another person's hot, and yet someone else's mild.
But the sauce is the sauce, calling it hot, or mild doesn't change what it is, or how it is perceived.
Maybe I should leave this alone, but I am just trying to understand.
Obviously software can't 100% accurately predict actual IBU's, but it will be close enough for our purposes.
It just seems odd to me that if you like a 50 IBU beer, why would you change the utilization to call it a 70 IBU beer, or a 30 IBU beer.
Isn't the scale, the scale, and what is different is our perception of bitterness?

That's what I was going for in my first post.

When I make a recipe I'm working off the flavor of the hops more so then the ibus. I know that at 45 ibus if they are all in the end of the boil I won't like it but it will be very fruity and flavorful. So that is why I back up and start adding small amounts of hops earlier in the boil to build off the final flavor that I am shooting for.

I don't want the beer to be 60 ibus because I know that no matter when they were added, it will be too bitter. But if I build a 55 ibu beer with small additions leading to flame out and then larger additions for aroma and flavor it will be money.

The hop flavor profiles play a huge part. As well as the target you are shooting for. I'm almost always looking to be on the juicy side with a touch of bitterness so 50 or 55 ibu is my general go to. But it takes a ton of hops to get there. If I was going for an Old school west coast if it was at 55 or 60 it would be very bitter and would need to be big and malty to hold a chance of being palatable.

Does that make sense?

 

[Craigerrr]

That's what I was going for in my first post.

When I make a recipe I'm working off the flavor of the hops more so then the ibus. I know that at 45 ibus if they are all in the end of the boil I won't like it but it will be very fruity and flavorful. So that is why I back up and start adding small amounts of hops earlier in the boil to build off the final flavor that I am shooting for.

I don't want the beer to be 60 ibus because I know that no matter when they were added, it will be too bitter. But if I build a 55 ibu beer with small additions leading to flame out and then larger additions for aroma and flavor it will be money.

The hop flavor profiles play a huge part. As well as the target you are shooting for. I'm almost always looking to be on the juicy side with a touch of bitterness so 50 or 55 ibu is my general go to. But it takes a ton of hops to get there. If I was going for an Old school west coast if it was at 55 or 60 it would be very bitter and would need to be big and malty to hold a chance of being palatable.

Does that make sense?

For sure, at your volumes the cost of hops will have a big impact on your bottom line as well.
I am a bit of a hop head, I like my Westies bitter, and my hazies with a lot of flavor and aroma

 

[Bigbre04]

For sure, at your volumes the cost of hops will have a big impact on your bottom line as well.
I am a bit of a hop head, I like my Westies bitter, and my hazies with a lot of flavor and aroma

Totally. It is hands down my highest cost ingredient. I expect my big juiciest to be around $400-450 in ingredients. But we make that back by selling it in 10 oz pours lol. Plus most people come in and have one or 2 big ipas and then switch to the smaller guys which I make more money on.

Not to mention that I'm using almost all cryo hops so most of them are over 20 aa to start. So...1 oz at 60 mins of Columbus cryo is like 8 or 12 Ibus lol