Avg perfect NEIPA help

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by Kees77, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    #1 Kees77, Mar 3, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
    hi all

    I am relatively new to brewing; completed 5 all grain batches. It has been fun and results have been good. I just tried the Avg Perfect New England NEIPA recipe from this website and want to improve on this style. I love this type of IPA but I seem to have issues with hop burn. My first batch is harsh and I think the hops give it a puckering astringency type taste.

    I am quite particular with cleaning and sanitizing and feel the taste is from hops.

    Brew day specifics
    - 60 min mash in a mash king cooler at 167.
    - single batch sparge once first running was drained.
    - followed recipe to a tee in terms of timing and hop additions.
    - accidentally cooled to 130 and raised temp to 170 while whirlpool gave (that was the only mistake.
    - I use a drill with the grainfather paddle to Wp.

    I got 5.5 gallons in the fermenter all of which was full of hops. There was not a hop stand and this was the cloudiest, dirtiest wort i have ever transferred. I oxygenated with the same paddle and pitched one packet of White labs London Fog (Wlp066). The O.G was 1.060 and it finished at 1.012.

    I did not transfer to a secondary and dry hopped to schedule (Day 4 and Day 7) in the primary. I used pellet hops and did not bag them. Therefore, i did not remove the first hops addition.

    Transferred to keg on Day 10 and carb'd for 4 days. That transfer was also tough since there were so many hops. They were floating on top and settled below.

    The first 2 pints were undrinkable and 8 pints later it has gotten better. I find it more bitter than expected and the back of my throat burns. The smell is great. The color is great. I was expecting it to be more smooth.

    With that said:
    Should i filter the wort when transferring to the primary?
    Did i ruin it when i cooled to 130 for the whirlpool?
    Should i pitch more yeast than one packet?
    Should I use a secondary and risk oxygenation?
    Should i bag the dry hop additions?

    Please share your success and how it was different from mine.

    Thanks everyone
     
  2. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    I had that happen on my first NEIPA. I don’t think any of the concerns listed above are the problem. What were your hop types and schedule? Some hops just should not go in the boil, even for 5 min. What hops were used for bittering? Whirlpool starting at 180* is an important step. Dry hopping during active fermentation (ie day 3) is good. Water treatment on an WC IPA is around 3:1 So4:CaCl. A NEIPA is the opposite.

    Hope this helps. I found the recipe and will look at it.
     
  3. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    Ok, looked at the recipe. 14 oz of high alpha hops is pushing it. Also 59 IBUs with Citra and Galaxy at 10 is making it more of a hazy IPA than a NEIPA (debatable).

    I think I would pull one of the bittering additions and end up with around 30 IBUs. The whirlpool additions look okay. That’s lots of dry hops. Maybe ditch the late dry hop additions and just make additions during active fermentation (3rd day).

    Brew it again. Cheers
     
  4. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    I think you should avoid hop matter in the fermenter to avoid getting a vegetal like flavor in your beer. Group W is correct about the sulfate to chloride ratio, I use 2:1 for west coast so for a NEIPA it should be 1:1 or 1:2 to soften the bitterness. I would use all RO or distilled water as well to avoid raising the pH, bicarbonates can put a rough edge on the finishing bitterness. The throat burning you mentioned I have never experienced, usually astringency is the problem.

    The second thing to consider is pH throughout the brewing process, from mash to glass. It’s important to maintain a 5.2-5.4 pH in the mash, boil pH should be 5.2 and the pH at the time of pitching should be 5.1-5.2. Dry hopping can raise the pH considerably, finish pH in the beer of 4.3-4.4 can be raised up to 4.6-4.7 or even higher after dry hopping. This higher pH will make the beer less smooth and the bitterness will stand out. You can add phosphoric acid to the finished beer to reduce pH, but be careful, adding more than 1 tsp of 85% phosphoric acid per five gallons will begin to show in the finish. I try to get my IPA’s to about 4.3 pH on a West Coast, NEIPA’s shouldn’t be much different. The IBU’s should be lower as GW mentioned along with water treatment that should resemble a Helles, not a West Coast.

    Don’t give up, as you struggle with this you are gaining valuable experience you can use in other styles as well as IPA’s.
     
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  5. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    Thanks for the feedback HVM and GroupW. I should have mentioned I used natural spring water from a local spring. The mash ph was 5.6. I do have an RO system. It will take for ever to get 10 gallons. Maybe I should split the bill next time.
     
  6. HighVoltageMan!

    HighVoltageMan! Well-Known Member

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    5.6 is pretty high, if you can use the RO water you can get and distilled water for the rest. Do you know what the water profile is for the spring water?
     
  7. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    Without water analysis, HVM and others can chime in, but it probably wouldn’t hurt to add 2 ml of lactic to your mash and 1 ml to your sparge. Another astringency issue is to keep sparge temp below 170*. I assume you are doing infusion mash and sparge. I checked my NEIPA recipes and they are about Cl:SO4 2:1 like HVM said. Unrelated, but some mash NEIPAs at ~154*.
    Cheers and brew on!
     
  8. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    Thanks man. after draining the first runnings I sparged with 185 degree water. The mash did not get above 170. I have a ton of hop matter in the beer, I'm thinking of doing a keg to keg transfer.

    I emailed the town for a water analysis from the spring (chalk lake springs in Ontario). I will try the lactic acid to get lower.
     
  9. Group W

    Group W Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the home brewing addiction. Start with a rather simple recipe that you like to drink and repeat it at least a few times. Learning the recipe builder in BF is a great start. Once you have an equipment profile established and a basic understanding of water treatment you will be brewing some nice beer. It sounds like you are getting the hang of it. Watch out for oxidation. Skipping secondary helps. Enjoy!
     
  10. Aub

    Aub Active Member

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    Sparging at 185 degrees could have contributed a fair bit to the astringency of your beer due to more tannins being extracted at higher temps. Try around 170 degrees.
     
  11. Trialben

    Trialben Well-Known Member

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    I'd imagine hop particles in the beer will deliver some harsh unwanted bitterness. This would also go along way towards your problem. Work on your process to prevent hop debris making it to the serving keg. A good couple day cold crash will help at freezing. Also if you know your still going to transfer some hops I've used a fine mesh cloth like BIAB material tied to end of transfer hose helps hold back some remaining stubborn particulate. The rest will drop to bottom of keg and also shortening dip tube an inch can help too...
     
  12. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    My last one took about three weeks for the burn to back off, but when it did it was amazing. Don't know if I'll change the recipe next time, or just not tap it for 2-3 weeks. I'm probably overhopping, but the last half of the keg was so tasty.
     
  13. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    I always thought you should raise the grain bed to 170. That is why i sparge with hotter water.
     
  14. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    Interesting. My neighbour (who got me into this great hobby) said my dip tube needs to be cut. I did not filter when transferring and there is probably too much material at the bottom of the keg.

    I'm planning a keg to keg transfer under CO2 pressure and will make sure the tube is 1" off the bottom.

    Thanks
     
  15. Mark Farrall

    Mark Farrall Well-Known Member

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    Get the crud in the first few glasses you pour or cut the dip tube and dump the crud at the end of the keg. I don't see the difference myself.
     
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  16. Aub

    Aub Active Member

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    What temperature are you mashing at?
     
  17. Nosybear

    Nosybear Well-Known Member

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    I tried that a couple times. No, and don't worry too much about a "mash-out" either. The water should be no hotter than 170 degrees.
     
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  18. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    Hi. I mashed this one at 152F. SIngle infusion and single (batch) sprage.
     
  19. Kees77

    Kees77 New Member

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    Thanks. I'll try this on my next batch.
     
  20. Aub

    Aub Active Member

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    Sounds fine, as Nosy says the sparge water is best kept at about 170 degrees or a bit lower.
    Good luck with the next brew and let us know how it goes.
     

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