Adding D.W.B. and A.M.S. to water profile

Discussion in 'General Brewing Discussions' started by JedTodd, Apr 2, 2021.

  1. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    You're teaching High School or first year college chemistry to a Grade 6 student though for practical purposes.

    You might want to teach him what a fish is before you try to teach him to fish.
     
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  2. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    No offence @Silver_Is_Money but this is way to heavy for me. I applaud your knowledge and proficiency, it is just so far over my head that I can't glean a single thing from it.
     
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  3. JedTodd

    JedTodd New Member

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    Thankyou so much for the lesson Master......i am now going to take two chill pill's, pour a drink of overtreated, Beginner made Beer, find a dark room to have a lay down and dream of fish, anions and canions etc, and joyously look forward to the next instalment, NOT! i suggest you do something similar
     
  4. Craigerrr

    Craigerrr Well-Known Member

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    I am certain that @Silver_Is_Money is just trying to be helpful.
    Unfortunately the rest of us are not so adept at all of the science behind this.
     
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  5. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, don't let it stop you from learning. Their motives were good but overzealous.

    I'd seriously suggest trying a batch without doing anything to your water and see how you like it.
     
  6. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    I will say that Brewer's Friend would benefit from offering a calculator telling people if their water analysis (or their dream water profile) is in cation/anion mEq charge balance, or not. As far as I know, BF does not currently provide this service (unless it is there within one of their calculators, but I'm simply missing it).
     
  7. BarbarianBrewer

    BarbarianBrewer Well-Known Member

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    There is Basic Water Chemistry: https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ and the Advanced Water Chemistry: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/. The instructional part is in the bottom half of the page.

    A brewing rule I've heard Denny Conn mention is (or is close to it) "If you aren't enjoying brewing beer, you are doing it wrong!". @Silver_Is_Money, it's obvious that you love to dive deep into the math and chemistry of water treatments. I trust everything you have said, understood most of it (I think) and truly appreciate the effort you are putting into sharing your knowledge. However, you can't expect others to have the same abilities and passions as you do. Any brewer on the forum, especially a new brewer, has to feel confident that the can ask questions and get answers they can understand and not to be criticized if they don't understand. Or they choose not to put in the time to understand because will remove the fun of brewing beer, which should be the goal of any hobby. I hope this experience does not keep @JedTodd from asking more questions on this forum.
     
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  8. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    I for one can understand @Silver_Is_Money explanations, but I have to agree they may be 'way' advanced for many homebrewers.

    But that is what makes this place special: we have folks with all sorts of expertise, happy to share, that can help us all solve problems.

    Where else can you get chemists, engineers, pest control technicians, hoofed mammal biologists, IT folks, machinists and construction workers (and many others) all in the same "room"?
     
  9. Sunfire96

    Sunfire96 Well-Known Member

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  10. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #50 Silver_Is_Money, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
    I find it more than a little disconcerting that so many are openly railing against my step by step proof for the addition of 21.8 mL of AMS acid blend, while at the same time only one person other than myself has shown any open level of concern that @JedTodd has been happily adding 142 mL of AMS acid blend. If I had remained silent he would have quite likely continued this practice. Not to mention the practice of adding 85 grams of minerals...

    And as for all open forum posts, the intent is to reach and thereby benefit more than just the OP. Otherwise all responses would have to be carried out as private conversations.
     
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  11. BarbarianBrewer

    BarbarianBrewer Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is railing against your step-by-step approach. In fact I learn best that way. The only pushback you received was when you appeared to become frustrated with the OP when he didn't embrace the level of detail you were providing. I think it's great that you pointed out a issue in the water treatment advice he was being given. That's what we are here for. I hope you keep on giving advice. But, I think the analogy of using calculus to solve a student's introductory algebra problem applies here. Some in the class will get it and some will struggle. I just politely request you be respectful of those who are struggling.
     
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  12. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #52 Silver_Is_Money, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021
    Might I remind everyone that this thread was not posted within the Beginners Brewing Forum, and that Jed himself has openly stated that for several years now he has been applying the water adjustment advice given to him by the company that analyzed his water. Nowhere (to me at least) does this imply or infer beginning brewer status. And I respected his desire to brew good beer enough to meticulously detail where his advice was (potentially*) in gross error. His advice came to him from a well respected and well known company with status and history. How else was he to believe me, merely an average Joe brewer, over them and their revered status, unless I provided proof via sound math?

    *I state "potentially" with reference to my repeated questioning throughout this thread of my own (not Jed's) potential to have been somehow misunderstanding their adjustment advice to him.*
     
  13. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    It's been working for him so far. Somehow he creates beer. Doesn't matter then, long as he's happy.
     
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  14. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    That's why I tried to suggest dumbing it down a couple times, it was clear he wasn't picking up what was being laid down.
     
  15. JedTodd

    JedTodd New Member

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  16. Hawkbox

    Hawkbox Well-Known Member

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    Huh, I had never in my life heard of them or of AMS before this.
     
  17. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #57 Silver_Is_Money, Apr 7, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    You don't live in the UK. AMS/CRS is only available there to my knowledge. And my presumption is that Murphy & Son is pretty big there, both as a supplier to the commercials and to home brewers.

    On strictly an acid strength at 5.40 pH basis, whereby for weak acids, strength varies relative to the targeted pH, the closest thing to AMS/CRS on a mEq/mL basis would be (pending that my ciphering is correct) 30% Phosphoric Acid, but then no one markets a food grade 30% Phosphoric Acid to my knowledge.

    AMS/CRS is a weak blend of strong acids, so its strength does not vary with pH, but rather is constant due to full dissociation in water at nigh-on all pH's. OTOH, Phosphoric Acid is a weak acid, but somewhat on the stronger side for a weak acid. That said, at specifically pH 5.40 it only liberates (as in dissociates) a tad more than one of its three hydrogen's, so at pH 5.4 it acts quite closely to as if it was merely monoprotic as opposed to triprotic. Enter it into a basic media and it will liberate more hydrogen's. At some higher concentration of base it will eventually freely liberate all three of them.

    In the UK they laugh at us for using Phosphoric Acid because it can rob water of calcium to some degree, which varies as to how much Ca is in the water, plus how much Alkalinity is in the water. The more calcium, and the more Alkalinity, the more Phosphoric Acid is needed, and the more it tends to drop the calcium out. Since in the UK they use boat loads of Ca, plus they have generally high Alkalinity, adding sufficient Phosphoric Acid would potentially precipitate out a boat load of Calcium Apatate and leave behind a mess. In the America's we laugh at the UK for using an acid that contributes loads of both Cl and SO4 ions. Plus we laugh at the UK for using so much calcium. We really need to stop laughing at each other. Most anyone in the UK will tell you that you can't effectively clone their styles without really cranking up the calcium (let alone the Cl and SO4 ions). They do not use RO water much in the UK to my knowledge, and in-home RO units are virtually unheard of. On one UK forum that I freq, they were joking (or rather, they were serious) that we need RO units here because our public water supplies are so filthy as to mandate it.
     
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  18. Donoroto

    Donoroto Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the UK is blessed with crazy hard water, and their beers reflect that.
     
  19. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #59 Silver_Is_Money, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    Since I mentioned that my Alkalinity reduction math post was open to the benefit of all, and I realize that AMS/CRS is not widely available, substitute any one of these various acids and their associated acid strengths in place of the 3.66 mEq/mL seen for AMS/CRS when targeting pH 5.40:

    Use these various mEq/mL Acid Strengths, relative specifically to a target of pH 5.40:

    use 11.451 mEq/mL for 88% Lactic Acid
    use 10.246 mEq/mL for 80% Lactic Acid
    use 3.660 mEq/mL for CRS/AMS
    use 1.0903 mEq/mL for 10% Phosphoric Acid
    use 3.667 mEq/mL for 30% Phosphoric Acid
    use 12.262 mEq/mL for 75% Phosphoric Acid
    use 14.865 mEq/mL for 85% Phosphoric Acid
    use 12.635 mEq/gram for Citric Acid (anhydrous)

    NOTE: A reduction in Alkalinity of ~90% should "typically* yield water at pH ~5.40.

    So (for example) if your water has 150 ppm of Alkalinity (as CaCO3), and you want to drop it to ~pH 5.40, then:
    150 ppm x 0.90 = 135 ppm (mg/L) of Alkalinity which must be removed from it.

    NOTE 2: *This quasi-empirical 'short cut' method of using 90% reduction ignores the initial pH of the water, but for most fresh water at typical "normative" drinking water type pH's, it should generally get you pretty close. If you want better precision, forego a pH endpoint, and target a specific ppm Alkalinity endpoint. Or utilize a software calculator that applies a more sophisticated and more complex math model. The small computed differences will likely be within ones means to actually measure and add acid at a specified quantity, and given that (for example) individual lots of 88% Lactic Acid can range from perhaps ~84% to ~92% in actual strength, ...

    NOTE 3: A true "zero Alkalinity" water is only achieved (for water with initial bicarbonate (HCO3-) ion species related Alkalinity) by reducing your waters pH to 4.3-4.4 (see chart below). But at that pH the relative acid strengths will be different (and for some acids appreciably different) from the pH 5.4 strengths seen above.

    HCO3.png
     
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  20. Silver_Is_Money

    Silver_Is_Money Active Member

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    #60 Silver_Is_Money, Apr 8, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021
    An inferred word about marketing and acid percent concentration (plus more):

    Due to laws intended to assure that the consumer is actually getting what they pay for, it can be inferred that for most cases the acids you purchase from scrupulous manufacturers/distributors/retailers should most likely be somewhat on the strong (or high) side of their percent concentration labeling. That said, I have an older bottle of 88% lactic Acid that recently tested (via my own testing, which always has some degree of question as to its accuracy) at closer to ~82% than to the marked 88%. Caveat emptor...

    Given that we generally do not really know the actual strengths of our acids/bases, and that our methods whereby to introduce them into the mash water at precisely specific quantities are highly suspect as to accuracy as well, striving for mega-math-model precision in calculations may or may not yield much statistical benefit. And on top of this, our water analyticals are always suspect, and our actual/individual lots of grist components (malts, grains) can (and typically will) vary wildly from anticipated pHDI's and malt/grain acidities (even perhaps if marked right on the bag). And if we don't ever really know what we have on hand, computer software can't either... All that can be hoped for is a cluster of presumption and math-model errors factoring each other out (by luck) in a "fuzzy math" sort of way. But errors can sometimes be additive as opposed to canceling... Again, caveat emptor...

    And if (such as it is) carbonate species based math models intended for Alkalinity reduction are built upon the chart posted above, or something generally quite similar to it, beware that the chart is only valid at a specific temperature which will assuredly not be your mash temperature, and at mash temperature the distribution of the carbonate species will be radically different... All of this (and far more) adds to speculation as to our ability to truly math model what goes on within the mash, and makes pH targeting via software rather difficult. So don't place unwavering faith in any of such software... It's always better to trust your own measurement of pH when it varies from some software packages prediction.
     
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