Adding D.W.B. and A.M.S. to water profile

[JedTodd]

Hi, i'm based in the uk and our blended water treatments are Generally DWB and AMS. I had my water supply analysed and follow the Laboratories guidelines to correct my water profile for beer and Lagers. Question: i cannot figure out how to enter these in the sites water profile, doe's the site recognise British chemicals for water treatment? Many thanks in advance, and happy brewing!

 

[Donoroto]

The water calculators expect to see the amount of various ions that are relevant to brewing. These include Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfate, Chloride, Sodium and Bicarbonate.

With that data in hand, the water calculator will help you get from 'your water' to 'water for xxxx type beer'. For this, we may add 'brewing salts', such as calcium carbonate or sodium chloride.

So how the water is treated* is not so important as knowing which minerals (and how much) it contains.

(*unless it is treated cruelly )

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

AMS is a not generally considered to be a mineral water treatment, albeit that it does contribute Cl and SO4 ions, so I'd guess that you might see it as an acidic mineral treatment. It is actually a blended acid. It appears to be a specific blend of Hydrochloric and Sulfuric acids that may or may not be considered proprietary. Brewers Friend does have it as an acid choice, albeit that I question whether BF has assigned the correct acid strength to it, whereby my opinion is that Brewers Friend has it as being a bit stronger than I believe it to actually be. I believe its 'nominal' acid strength to be right close to 3.66 mEq/mL.

DWB is a specific blend of unspecified minerals that may or may not be considered proprietary. It is claimed that when 9 grams of DWB are added to 100 Liters of water it imparts 15.6 ppm Ca ions, 15.4 ppm Cl ions, and 32.1 ppm SO4 ions. The ppm amount of Mg ions it imparts (if any) is not specified. Ditto for Na, and K ions. If CaCl2 is one of the minerals, its "presumed" hydration state at the time of formulation is also unknown. If, however, CaCl2 is incorporated, the blend is thereby not stable (as for any crystalline CaCl2), and will not deliver precisely the specified mineral quantities once it has been exposed to the humidity of air.

 

[JedTodd]

This is my actual report for my household supply ( which is filtered through a whole of house softener and filters ) and their recommendations for brewing adjustments, thanks for all advice and help, cheers Jed

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Something looks very odd about those analyticals. For starters, your source water (or raw liquor) doesn't come close to balancing as to mEq/L's of cations and anions. Then 143 mL of AMS and 85 g. of DWB in only 25 liters of water look to be unusually massive amounts.

Your source water also fails this test:

Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 2.5(Ca) + 4.12(Mg)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It should only take 21.8 mL of AMS to reduce the alkalinity within 25 Liters of your initially 186 ppm Alkalinity water to 26 ppm. Presuming that it is indeed 186 ppm Alkalinity to begin with.

21.8 mL of AMS added to 25 Liters of water will contribute 23.9 ppm Cl- ion, and 32.9 ppm SO4-- ion.

 

[Donoroto]

The numbers I wrote about are the Raw Liquor values in your document.

 

[JedTodd]

wow, thank's for replying. I brewed today using those figures and when i tested the mash p.h. it came out at 4, that was using paper test strips. The bf number was 5.47 but i think that is an automated figure?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

wow, thank's for replying. I brewed today using those figures and when i tested the mash p.h. it came out at 4, that was using paper test strips. The bf number was 5.47 but i think that is an automated figure?

If you instructed BF to add 143 mL of AMS I'd be shocked to see a resulting mash pH of 5.47. A mash pH of 4 seems far more believable.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The following minerals, when blended, appear to come reasonably close to the minerals in 100 g. of DWB:

62.5 grams Gypsum
12.7 grams CaCl2 (as the dihydrate form)
5.6 grams Epsom Salt
19.2 grams Table Salt (iodine free)

Warning: Do not trust or merely assume this (the above) to be correct, or even close to correct information. Verify!!!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I believe that these two acids, when properly and safely "made up to" 1 Liter (1,000 mL) within a base of deionized water, appear to deliver close to the acidity and minerals of AMS:

50 mL of 98.00% (W/V) Sulfuric Acid (food grade)
150 mL of 37.2% (W/V) Hydrochloric Acid (food grade)

YMMV, and I may well be incorrect in this assumption/belief, so do your own due diligence and verify. Do not simply trust.

Warning and Disclaimer: These are both maximally concentrated and extremely dangerous and hazardous acids. Use proper PPE (personal protective equipment), and follow ALL proper chemical practice and procedure, and never add water to acid(s). Absolutely do not attempt this if you do not 100% fully understand the abject danger, the corrosive hazards, and the safe procedures and proper PPE required. Read and understand all SDS (MSDS) hazard warning information.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

AMS is the small retail packaging size version of CRS. If its in large packages intended for breweries, its CRS. They are otherwise identical. And both are very popular in the UK.

I can't imagine that DWB could be nearly as popular, though I'm open to being corrected.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The acid and mineralization advice given to the OP for several UK styles totally baffles and confuses me. The acid and mineral addition quantities recommended for each style are massive and well out of proportion to the intended final water profiles. Am I looking at them all wrong?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If it matters, a few circa mid 1920's era peer reviewed UK brewery documents I've come across indicate that for brewing industry chemists (at least) Porter and Stout should have little to no added sulfate ion. This precludes the use of Gypsum and Epsom Salt. And promotes the use of CaCl2 (calcium chloride). So DWB would not be at all suitable for either of these two (or is it one?) styles.

 

[JedTodd]

If you instructed BF to add 143 mL of AMS I'd be shocked to see a resulting mash pH of 5.47. A mash pH of 4 seems far more believable.

i think the problem is that bf ask for specific additions of ion's and minerals, rather than recognise a "group" addition such as DWB and AMS. Think maybe i would have to break it all down to its base additives and enter the details that way. BF actually has my PH as 5.49 with a nice tick beside it , lol

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

i think the problem is that bf ask for specific additions of ion's and minerals, rather than recognise a "group" addition such as DWB and AMS. Think maybe i would have to break it all down to its base additives and enter the details that way. BF actually has my PH as 5.49 with a nice tick beside it , lol

I guess I'm more concerned with the seemingly errant mash adjustment advice you are being given by the company linked within your post #4. It seems untenable and I can't imagine that they are informing you to add 142 mL of AMS and 85 grams of DWB to 25 Liters of your water wherein to mash either a Bitter or a Pale Ale recipe. And their adjustment advice for your water with respect to other beer styles seems just as ludicrous. That's what I'm questioning with regard to my own understanding of their advice to you, wherein I'm actually questioning if I'm factually understanding them correctly.

What actual mineral and acid adjustments and quantities thereof did you make for your brew as is being discussed here?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Apparenty DWB stands for "Dry Water Burtonization". And DWB is also known as DLS (Dry Liquor Salts).

 

[JedTodd]

I guess I'm more concerned with the seemingly errant mash adjustment advice you are being given by the company linked within your post #4. It seems untenable and I can't imagine that they are informing you to add 142 mL of AMS and 85 grams of DWB to 25 Liters of your water wherein to mash either a Bitter or a Pale Ale recipe. And their adjustment advice for your water with respect to other beer styles seems just as ludicrous. That's what I'm questioning with regard to my own understanding of their advice to you, wherein I'm actually questioning if I'm factually understanding them correctly.

What actual mineral and acid adjustments and quantities thereof did you make for your brew as is being discussed here?

Hi Silver, the purpose of the post was to ask how to adjust the ph reading which is automated by my water profile in the bf recipe builder, i have now entered the figures that Murphy's ( these are the Laboratories water analysis and profile adjustment recommendations ) have given for my raw liquor sample ( Tap Water.) Looking at the AMS and DWB canisters i realise now that they are also made by Murphys here in the u.k. I have followed the recommendations of Murphys Labs on each different style of beer or Lager for several years of paying for the report. I will contact them to ask them if they can review the figures they gave me and report back to the forum. In your opinion are these levels of treatment too high? based on the raw liquor sample in the report what would your treatment adjustments be? Thank you for your help and concern, that is the great thing about a brewing forum where we can all help each other out on subjects we do not fully understand.Cheers, Jed

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Hi Silver, the purpose of the post was to ask how to adjust the ph reading which is automated by my water profile in the bf recipe builder, i have now entered the figures that Murphy's ( these are the Laboratories water analysis and profile adjustment recommendations ) have given for my raw liquor sample ( Tap Water.) Looking at the AMS and DWB canisters i realise now that they are also made by Murphys here in the u.k. I have followed the recommendations of Murphys Labs on each different style of beer or Lager for several years of paying for the report. I will contact them to ask them if they can review the figures they gave me and report back to the forum. In your opinion are these levels of treatment too high? based on the raw liquor sample in the report what would your treatment adjustments be? Thank you for your help and concern, that is the great thing about a brewing forum where we can all help each other out on subjects we do not fully understand.Cheers, Jed

The first thing that must be resolved is the analyticals of your water. As given to you, and if I'm reading them correctly, they fail the critical cation/anion mEq/L (milliequivalents per Liter) balance test, making them seemingly not possible to be correct.

I do not profess any mystical belief in the power of "water profiles" so I will make no effort to suggest mineral additions to you whereby to achieve or duplicate any magical water profile.

As stated above, if your water factually has 186 ppm of Alkalinity (as CaCO3), the value for which we can not have confidence until there is a respectable cation/anion mEq/L balance, then by my calculation ~21.8 mL of AMS/CRS should be required whereby to lower the Alkalinity within specifically 25 Liters of your water to their suggested target Alkalinity value of 26 ppm. And as stated above it seems as if for Bitters or Pale Ale they are suggesting that a computed need for the addition of 142 mL of AMS/CRS is required whereby to drop the Alkalinity in 25 L of your water to the same 26 ppm (again prefaced by this being my understanding as to what they are suggesting, subject to my being corrected). I have asked you if my understanding in this is correct, with no reply by you in direct answer to this question.

I have also questioned my own understanding whereby I perceive that they are suggesting that for Bitters or Pale Ale you need to add 85 grams of their mineral blend into 25 L of your own water whereby to achieve their seemingly mystical or magical (I.E., seemingly to me) water profile, as 85 grams of blended off the shelf common brewing water adjustment minerals seems (to me) to be a massively high addition quantity into only and specifically 25 L of water. You have also been asked to correct this, my understanding, and have not done so.

I lastly asked as to the specifics of the adjustments you actually made to your water, and no reply has been given for this either.

 

[JedTodd]

Hi silver, i know nothing about water chemistry, hence why i paid the Lab, who say they do, to analyse and give me the best profile for the style of beers and Lagers i brew. Their report and guidance, as attached in the post, is all the information i have to go on, is this what you mean by "specifics" and your understanding? I don't know what else to say, as like i said, i am a Layman when it comes to water chemistry, i hope this makes more sense? Cheers, Jed