Adding Acid to Sparge Water

[Craigerrr]

We talked about this on Saturdays Zoom Happy Hour.
For those that do acidify their sparge water, how much do you add, and to what volume of sparge water.
I have 88% Lactic on hand

 

[J A]

Use the water chemistry calculator. It'll tell you exactly how much to add based on your predicted sparge water volume and the overall pH of your water profile after brewing salts additions. You'd like your sparge water to be in the 4-ish range but if you haven't controlled pH and chemistry throughout the mash, you're not getting the full effect.

 

[Craigerrr]

Use the water chemistry calculator. It'll tell you exactly how much to add based on your predicted sparge water volume and the overall pH of your water profile after brewing salts additions. You'd like your sparge water to be in the 4-ish range but if you haven't controlled pH and chemistry throughout the mash, you're not getting the full effect.

Thanks
I don't "control" pH per se.
I start with RO, and add "salts" per the software I use to get a predicted mash pH around 5.4.
For a particular recipe I am looking at brewing next the Brewfather software tells me to add 0.45ml lactic to sparge water to get the pH to 4.
Does this sound like what you would expect?
I am not really interested in spending $200+ on a good pH meter, I have tried a couple of cheap ones ($20 and $70) units, as with everything else brewing I just want to trust the software.

 

[dmtaylor]

Way too many variables to consider to come up with any generic guidance. Sometimes I'll add a little, especially with light color beers. Usually I don't bother acidifying. It depends on your source water, and the style you are brewing. 0.45ml concentrated lactic doesn't seem like a crazy amount, but what do I know.... if I add acid, it's a "glug" of vinegar.

 

[J A]

Thanks
I don't "control" pH per se.
I start with RO, and add "salts" per the software I use to get a predicted mash pH around 5.4.
For a particular recipe I am looking at brewing next the Brewfather software tells me to add 0.45ml lactic to sparge water to get the pH to 4.
Does this sound like what you would expect?
I am not really interested in spending $200+ on a good pH meter, I have tried a couple of cheap ones ($20 and $70) units, as with everything else brewing I just want to trust the software.

Yeah, you're doing it right...there's no reason that the Brewfather software wouldn't be accurate. I've followed the BF calculator recommendations and measured the pH and gotten the predicted outcome. My additions are considerably higher but I'm using local water with a high pH to start.

 

[Minbari]

Yeah, you're doing it right...there's no reason that the Brewfather software wouldn't be accurate. I've followed the BF calculator recommendations and measured the pH and gotten the predicted outcome. My additions are considerably higher but I'm using local water with a high pH to start.

The people at BF do a good job with math, as long as you input your profile accurately.

I have never added acid to sparge water, since i mostly fly sparge, what is the purpose?

 

[JIm S.]

Agree to use a calculator provided in the Big 3 and other recipe software then, it's easy to check sparge, or mash, pH with calibrated pH meter or pH test strips with 0.5 pH unit precision. Yes, I've compared the test strips to actual pH meter values and surprisingly accurate.

General rule is <6.0 but I like to target my mash pH of between 5.2-5.6 depending on beer style.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

I have never added acid to sparge water, since i mostly fly sparge, what is the purpose?

On a recent Home Brew Happy Hour podcast @HighVoltageMan! said he acidifies the sparge to help with the pH in the boil. There are many things he does that won him the Home Brew of the Year award that I can't/won't do because of equipment cost or extra effort but, tossing in a couple ml of lactic acid into the sparge water is pretty quick, cheap, & simple.

 

[J A]

The people at BF do a good job with math, as long as you input your profile accurately.

I have never added acid to sparge water, since i mostly fly sparge, what is the purpose?

I fly sparge...the point is to keep the pH moving in the right direction throughout the sparge. If I have a mash pH of 5.4 and then dump a lot of 7 or 8 pH water into it, it changes things drastically. I've never argued with the logic of it and I get great efficiency and quality beer.

 

[Donoroto]

We talked about this on Saturdays Zoom Happy Hour.
For those that do acidify their sparge water, how much do you add, and to what volume of sparge water.
I have 88% Lactic on hand

I use 88% lactic. Recipes typically call for 3 to 7 ml of acid in a 5 gallon batch. I start with 7.25 gallons of water, add salts/acid/whatever, drain off 1.75 gallons for ‘sparge’ later and brew with the 5.5 gallons remaining.

Sparge is a misnomer, more of a hot rinse, but note that it is also treated (and acidified if called for), just like the brewing water.

 

[Craigerrr]

I use 88% lactic. Recipes typically call for 3 to 7 ml of acid in a 5 gallon batch. I start with 7.25 gallons of water, add salts/acid/whatever, drain off 1.75 gallons for ‘sparge’ later and brew with the 5.5 gallons remaining.

Sparge is a misnomer, more of a hot rinse, but note that it is also treated (and acidified if called for), just like the brewing water.

Okay, so you are adding lactic to your full volume of water, and draining off / reserving a portion of that water to rinse/sparge, so you are essentially adding acid to your sparge water, just in a uniform fashion.
In my case I add nothing to my full volume of RO water, no acid, no salts.
I add my salts to my mash tun when I add the grains, which includes some acidulated malt.
My remaining water which I sparge/rinse with is straight RO water.
I have wondered recently if my acidulated malt has become neutral over time, I buy a pound or two (454 to 908 grams) and use 20 to 80 grams per batch.
I could have acidulated malt on hand for months, maybe even a year.
Maybe I should ditch the acidulated malt, and use lactic in the mash instead, more predictable.

The reason I am asking about this is that my efficiency is shit, and has been a moving target.

Maybe next brew I will subtract the acidulated malt, add lactic to the full volume of water, and then add the salts to the mash as usual.
I will have to make sure to adjust my equipment profile to take this into account.

 

[J A]

Okay, so you are adding lactic to your full volume of water, and draining off / reserving a portion of that water to rinse/sparge, so you are essentially adding acid to your sparge water, just in a uniform fashion.
In my case I add nothing to my full volume of RO water, no acid, no salts.
I add my salts to my mash tun when I add the grains, which includes some acidulated malt.
My remaining water which I sparge/rinse with is straight RO water.
I have wondered recently if my acidulated malt has become neutral over time, I buy a pound or two (454 to 908 grams) and use 20 to 80 grams per batch.
I could have acidulated malt on hand for months, maybe even a year.
Maybe I should ditch the acidulated malt, and use lactic in the mash instead, more predictable.

The reason I am asking about this is that my efficiency is shit, and has been a moving target.

Maybe next brew I will subtract the acidulated malt, add lactic to the full volume of water, and then add the salts to the mash as usual.
I will have to make sure to adjust my equipment profile to take this into account.

There is a separate addition of lactic acid specifically to the volume of brewing water that's reserved for the sparge. Mash pH is impacted by various malts and is controlled through the use of salts and ingredients like acidulated malt or lactic or phosphoric acid. Mash pH and sparge water pH are 2 different things. Mash should be around 5.4 and that can happen with water that's still in the 6 or 7 range. If you use the same water to sparge without acidifying, you're potentially bringing the pH of the wort back up.
I don't think there's any reason to think that the pH of acidulated malt would change if it doesn't interact with other stuff.
The only way you're going to know what's going on is to invest in a reasonable pH meter. The inexpensive ones should do fine for our purposes.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Adding acid to the sparge is just another technique available to brewers and isn't always needed, but for most beers it's helpful.

As JA mentioned, the mash pH, sparge pH, boil pH and pitch (knock out) pH are all different targets and move progressively downward. The mash pH is best at 5.4-5.6 as mentioned before, as you sparge (if you sparge) your likely adding some alkalinity, even with RO water. As the sparge progresses, the mash and runoff pH will begin to rise. As it rises, it can begin to leach tannins (maybe) and raise the pH of the boil (for sure). After the sparge is done, it's likely the boil pH is above the mash pH.

It still may be fine because the boil will drop in pH if the pH is somewhat high (5.6-5.8). If you do what I do and drop the boil pH to 5.05-5.1, the pH will come up ever so slightly. My theory as to why this happens is due to alkalinity. If the wort contains some residual alkalinity, the boil will cause some to drop out and it not uncommon to see it drop back down to the 5.3-5.4 range. If you acidulate the sparge water and adjust the pre-boil pH to 5.05 or so, the alkalinity has essentially been neutralized and the pH remains more stable.

The last and I believe the most important place to get the pH right is at pitch or sometimes referred to as "knockout" and should be 5.05 -5.15. Most light beers like light colored lagers, IPA's, Belgian, Pale ales, etc. work best for not only adding acid to the sparge water, but also a lower pitch pH. The pitch pH sets up the yeast at an ideal range to hit it's target finish pH and makes for an easier environment for the yeast. Darker beers need some alkalinity to keep the pH from dropping too low and can stand to have a higher pH at pitch.

So when to add acid in the sparge or wherever is dependent on the beer and the brewers goal.

 

[Brew Cat]

This is all fine but I collect all my water before hand and treat it all at the same time and it seems to works well

 

[J A]

This is all fine but I collect all my water before hand and treat it all at the same time and it seems to works well

Yes...you'd collect and treat your full volume - mash and sparge - and make adjustment with brewing salts to hit a target range for sulfate, chlorides, etc. Mash pH is handled with grist ingredients. Further acidifying the portion you use for sparge is strictly for pH control. Final wort pH plays a big factor in yeast health and to some extent in the final flavor and balance of the beer.

It all makes beer. You can use tap water and malt extract and come up with something passable. Homebrewers are usually satisfied with less than great mash efficiency and as long as the beer is palatable and pleasant and doesn't have any off flavors, it's plenty good enough. Using proven methodologies is a way to ensure that you're doing everything you can to optimize the process.

 

[Craigerrr]

Appreciate all of the input.
Like @Brew Cat I collect my total water volume at once, but I don't add my salts or acid then. I add my salts to the mash, and have, as mentioned, used acidulated per the software.
Not to sound full of myself, but I do make great beer, and I won't be buying a meter.

I think what I will do is stop using the acid malt, and go back to using lactic. Probably simplest if I change my parameters to adding lactic and salts to the full water volume. I am pretty sure that the software will make sure that the necessary salts and acid to buffer the mash are there.

Biggest reason for collecting all of the water at once is that I set up the Brewzilla to have the strike water at temperature when I get up in the morning to brew.

I will work away at this and be in a good place for my next brew, which won't be until July unfortunately.

 

[Donoroto]

Appreciate all of the input.
Like @Brew Cat I collect my total water volume at once, but I don't add my salts or acid then. I add my salts to the mash, and have, as mentioned, used acidulated per the software.
Not to sound full of myself, but I do make great beer, and I won't be buying a meter.

I think what I will do is stop using the acid malt, and go back to using lactic. Probably simplest if I change my parameters to adding lactic and salts to the full water volume. I am pretty sure that the software will make sure that the necessary salts and acid to buffer the mash are there.

Biggest reason for collecting all of the water at once is that I set up the Brewzilla to have the strike water at temperature when I get up in the morning to brew.

I will work away at this and be in a good place for my next brew, which won't be until July unfortunately.

Acidulated malt would not be expected to alkaliniate, ever. Kinda like expecting spoiled sour cream to taste sweet…

Acid in the sparge water won’t hurt and could help
….-.-
I also BZ, heating up 7.25 gallons of water using the timer, and with all the salts and acid added with the cold water the night before. I then drain off my 1.75 gallons and go from there.

Do you mill your own grain, or buy it pre-milled? Maybe a finer grind can improve efficiency

Do you recirculate during mash? That will help efficiency. Or at least a couple good stirs, at start, 15 and 30 minutes in.

If you make good beers, but have low efficiency, focus on those things that affect efficiency. I don’t think acid is a big one of those things.

 

[Brew Cat]

I like @Craigerrr point
If you collect your water before hand and treat but are using acid malt to acidify the mash you are not getting the acid in your sparge water
Something to think on
I use lactic for most beer but acid malt for German beer
I was actually toying with the idea of acidifying my own malt
Now I'm totally flummoxed

 

[Donoroto]

Sometimes I use Phosphoric, depends on the positions of the planets. And whether I’ve run out of lactic…

 

[Brew Cat]

Sometimes I use Phosphoric, depends on the positions of the planets. And whether I’ve run out of lactic…

Speaking of planets have you been following the conjunction of Jupiter and Venus?
June 8th look west