ABV / OG / efficiency incorrect, changes when saving recipe

Discussion in 'Recipe Editor' started by n3rdb0y, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    Hi there all!

    I've noticed that occasionally a recipe changes when saving. I've seen a few similar threads, but nothing quote the sane. I was actually trying to diagnose why my efficiency was over 100%, when I noticed the ABV changing between tabs of my browser. After some more hunting, I noticed that the changes happen when a recipe had been open for a time when AutoSave kicked in. Coincidentally (or perhaps not) the 138% efficiency came back to a more expected 73% efficiency at the same time.

    I saw it happen both on a snapshot recipe (https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/958914/berliner/325385), and then on the main recipe the snapshot was taken from. (https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/edit/925770)

    Simply opening the recipe (which turned on AutoSave) changed the OG from 1.031 to 1.028. The Boil gravity & ABV also changed accordingly. I didn't edit/change any ingredients.

    I've got screenshots of the snapshot recipe before and after, but didn't think to grab any of the main recipe (hadn't worked out the autosave thing yet). I'll attach them in a sec.

    Does any of this ring a bell? Which calculation of efficiency/OG is correct? And how did it get wrong to begin with?

    Hope this helps...

    Ben
     
  2. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    Before screenshots
    Screenshot_20200308-203956.png Screenshot_20200308-203947.png Screenshot_20200308-203938.png
     
  3. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    After screenshots
    Screenshot_20200308-210545.png Screenshot_20200308-210555.png Screenshot_20200308-210611.png
     
  4. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    Thanks for reaching out, my assumption without more information is that the january 22nd update, https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/january-22nd-updates.12608/, is affecting older recipes.

    So when you open the old recipe to edit, it calculates using the corrected boil gravity formulas.

    Would you be able to make the recipe shareable so I can take a look and confirm?
     
  5. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    Hi Pricelessbrewing

    I've made them both public now, feel free to have a look!

    I understand that the ABV/OG would change with different calculation methods ... but would the 138% vs 73% efficiency also be explained by that change ?

    cheers;
    Ben
     
  6. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    It's possible. The 73 sounds like it's in line with what should be expected, and I know there were some odd numbers coming out previously but can't recall what the issue was in the brew log precisely.

    I'll check my test notes and get back to you, probably tomorrow.
     
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  7. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    Hi Pricelessbrewing;

    Any new on this? I've just had my latest brew session claiming 320% efficiency, so I'm still rather confused !

    cheers;
     
  8. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    320% is a rather unexpected number, can you share your recipe, and all of the measurements? Did you add any water or extract before taking the gravity reading by chance?
     
  9. tmm786

    tmm786 New Member

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    looks like tomorrow never came. Not really boosting my confidence in renewing my subscription....
     
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  10. Yooper

    Yooper Administrator
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    Sorry about that- we've been a bit overwhelmed at the moment here at support.
    I can follow up if you need some assistance.
    @Pricelessbrewing may have a better understanding of your issue but I can definitely take a look and see what's going on.

    I'm really sorry that you're disappointed in our attention to your issue. We'll try to do better and get to the root of this problem you're having.
     
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  11. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    Apologies for the lack of followup @tmm786!

    Unfortunately I don't have access to private recipes, if you're able to make your recipe public and share a link to the recipe and all of your measurements then I'll be able to assist further.
     
  12. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    #12 n3rdb0y, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
    Hi @Pricelessbrewing

    Again, these are original recipes that I noticed this on are both public (main recipe and a snapshot):
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/958914/berliner
    https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/925770/berliner

    They're both showing 1.028 OG now, whereas both showed 1.031 OG previously (see screenshots above).

    Would appreciate any insight.

    (I tracked down the 320% efficiency to a different bug in the brew session screen - will start a separate topic: https://www.brewersfriend.com/forum/threads/log-entry-volume-units-not-responding-correctly.12937/)

    Thanks
     
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  13. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    #13 Pricelessbrewing, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
    Thanks for the clarification and links.

    Unfortunately there's still not enough info available for me to analyze further, as we would need the measurements taken, or pictures of the brew log measurements. All I can see is the information in the fermentation chart, which isn't enough to help trouble shoot any possible efficiency calculations. Gravity, volume, and temperature of that volume measurement are all needed for accurate efficiency analysis.

    I'm glad you were able to nail down the 320% though!
     
  14. n3rdb0y

    n3rdb0y New Member

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    Hi @Pricelessbrewing and @Yooper

    I added pictures of the brew lows above in the original bug report. Are these insufficient ?

    As mentioned previously, the measurements didn't change - the changed OG and efficicency happened when recipes were saved. You were going to check your notes to see if this was expected in the previous upgrade.

    I do understand that sometimes bugs are difficult to find, but it seems kind of critical when output numbers change when the inputs didn't. Can you give me some clarification on which set of numbers should we be trusting? The previous ones or the current ones? Or should we simply be using a spreadsheet instead?

    thanks
     
  15. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    @n3rdb0y

    My apologies, I missed the screenshots with the measurement and gravity reading from the actual log entry. Doing some math now to confirm
     
  16. Pricelessbrewing

    Pricelessbrewing QA Software Tester
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    #16 Pricelessbrewing, Apr 25, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
    The math is easier for me in imperial than metric, mostly due to gravity and PPG definitions, so I've converted your recipe accordingly.

    OG:

    17.64 lb, average PPG of 37.25 points.
    17.64* 37.25 = 657.09 total potential points.

    Brewhouse efficiency = 85%.

    .85 * 657.09 = 558.5265 points at batch size (volume into fermenter)

    Batch size is 19.812 gallons
    558.5265 / 19.812 = 28.19 => OG is 1.02819. This lines up with the OG in the "after" screenshots. Currently the recipe editor has it at 28.18 (small discrepancy probably due to rounding or unit conversions).

    If the FG is 1.0067632 (76% apparent attenuation from 1.028), then the ABV is most likely between 2.76 - and 2.84 (depending mostly on instrumental uncertainty in the hydrometer).

    Strictly 1.028 and 1.007 comes to 2.76. The recipe editor is using the full calculated values, without rounding, for OG and FG so you may see a slight deviation from that ABV vs the brew log for the "same" values, or for the ABV calculator.

    73% of 657.09 = 479.6757.
    Preboil volume in log entry is 91.3 Liters (24.11891 gallons) @1.020

    479.6757 / 24.11891 = 19.887950 => 1.01989 => 1.020 SG due to instrumental uncertainty and measurement scale precision.

    The "after" and the current site should be accurate on all accounts.
     

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