Altbier

[Sandy Feet]

I was just playing around with some ideas. I either want to do an Altbier or an ESB after my Saison. I know Sunfire had done an Altbier.
I basically took the Mean Brews recipe and adjusted it a little. I can't do anything fancy with the mash, so it has to be single infusion. I know, I know, it is supposed to be step mashed, but I want to see what I get doing it the simple way.
65.4% Pils (probably the good, floor malted shit)
13.5% Munich I
7.7% Vienna
3.8% Munich II
3.8% Caramunich III
3.8% Aromatic
1.9% Carafa Special III
0.75 oz Magnum @60
2.25 oz Saaz @10
I have never tried WLP036, but I guess that is the yeast to use.
I probably need to Mash around 148 because of the BIAB and all the darker malts. I would probably mash for around 70 minutes.
I would love to hear what you would change as this is just a first idea.

 

[Donoroto]

Only on the topic of step mashes: a decoction is pretty easy. Take out 1/4 to 1/3 of the mash, boil it on the stove, then dump it back in. Instant temperature increase.

So if you have 6 gallons of mash at 122F, and you want to go up to 145F, you take out 25% and when you add that 210F to the mash the temp bumps up to 144-ish. (210-122= 88, 88/4=22, so it adds 22F to the system.)(I think. Maybe it’s 88/3?)

 

[Megary]

I’ve never made an Alt, but I do plan on making one later this year. Probably early fall. I really like Zum Uerige, which I believe is a bit different from most other alts…a bit more bitter, less obvious malt presence, crisper.

I plan on staying true to this:
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2014/11/lets-brew-wednesday-zum-uerige-alt.html

Sorry, that’s really no help with your recipe. Good luck with it, I’ll be following your progress.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I may think about that at some point in time. I need to work out some timing and logistics so I don't burn the shit out of myself getting in a hurry when I carry it back outside and trying to figure out the scenario of what to do with the bag.
Before I mash, I have 8 gallons of water. Even after the water is absorbed by the grain, it is still 7 gallons. It is single vessel, so I don't recirculate. All the grain and the water are all mixed in together. If I pull out wort, the grain is mixed in, and it would probably burn on the stove. I could lift the bag, but I don't know how much that screws up my temps.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I’ve never made an Alt, but I do plan on making one later this year. Probably early fall. I really like Zum Uerige, which I believe is a bit different from most other alts…a bit more bitter, less obvious malt presence, crisper.

I plan on staying true to this:
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2014/11/lets-brew-wednesday-zum-uerige-alt.html

Sorry, that’s really no help with your recipe. Good luck with, I’ll be following your progress.

I might need to play with my hops. My reading leads me to believe it is a balance of malt/hop like an ESB, but different in almost every other way.
I was looking at 40IBUs because the Munich and the darker malts are going to get that thing sweet.
Some of that grain bill starts to get very close to a Dubbel without the wheat.

 

[Dave Y]

I was just playing around with some ideas. I either want to do an Altbier or an ESB after my Saison. I know Sunfire had done an Altbier.
I basically took the Mean Brews recipe and adjusted it a little. I can't do anything fancy with the mash, so it has to be single infusion. I know, I know, it is supposed to be step mashed, but I want to see what I get doing it the simple way.
65.4% Pils (probably the good, floor malted shit)
13.5% Munich I
7.7% Vienna
3.8% Munich II
3.8% Caramunich III
3.8% Aromatic
1.9% Carafa Special III
0.75 oz Magnum @60
2.25 oz Saaz @10
I have never tried WLP036, but I guess that is the yeast to use.
I probably need to Mash around 148 because of the BIAB and all the darker malts. I would probably mash for around 70 minutes.
I would love to hear what you would change as this is just a first idea.

I love me some malt forward Alt.
I don’t think you need the cara’s. You don’t fancy mash either. Single infusion, 151-152F. At 40 IBU, I might mash in a little higher. I did about 60/40 Pils to Munich and yes, the fancy ‘barke’ stuff.
I threw in some small additions of chocolate and pale chocolate - you’ve got it covered with the Carafa sp3. Mine came in 25 IBUs. I’ve done a few times now. When I subbed in some Munich 2, it wasn’t the crowd pleaser as with Munich 1. I’ve run white labs and imperial German Ale yeast - that stuff is strong. I got an addaboy from the local club with it and like I said, a simple mash bill actually works quite well with the Alt.

Even at only 25 IBU, it’s not ’sweet’ or cloying, but the malt does outshine the hops a bit. I could probably safely go to 30-35 IBU with it but this beer is neighbor tested, and hits the palate of swill drinkers to beer snobs and a wide range of folks in between.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I was working off of a framework recipe, but I am very comfortable using Chocolate 350 instead of the Carafa, and if I could take one or two things out, I might. Thanks, I appreciate the input. Those hops are not set in stone either. I think a do want the Saaz, but I could change the bittering.

 

[Dave Y]

Your hops look fine to me, you just need some old world hops in there and you do. I like Tettnanger & Hallertauer but Saaz is solid.

 

[Josh Hughes]

You could also go simple Pils, Munich, touch of a dark roast of some kind 30 ibu at beginning of boil any noble hop. Red x is nice to get some of the Cara and melanoidan without Cara and melanoidan. It’s as fermentable as Munich II

 

[Bigbre04]

I was just playing around with some ideas. I either want to do an Altbier or an ESB after my Saison. I know Sunfire had done an Altbier.
I basically took the Mean Brews recipe and adjusted it a little. I can't do anything fancy with the mash, so it has to be single infusion. I know, I know, it is supposed to be step mashed, but I want to see what I get doing it the simple way.
65.4% Pils (probably the good, floor malted shit)
13.5% Munich I
7.7% Vienna
3.8% Munich II
3.8% Caramunich III
3.8% Aromatic
1.9% Carafa Special III
0.75 oz Magnum @60
2.25 oz Saaz @10
I have never tried WLP036, but I guess that is the yeast to use.
I probably need to Mash around 148 because of the BIAB and all the darker malts. I would probably mash for around 70 minutes.
I would love to hear what you would change as this is just a first idea.

I would ditch one of the munichs probably munich 1 in favor of more munich 2. I generally use Vienna OR Munich as they sort of serve similar purposes in my mind. probably wouldnt bother with the aromatic, especially if you are using Munich and Vienna.

This style cries for Special X or Extra special malt IMO.

of course i would sub out the pils for 2 row...

subbing in some 300L chocolate would be very nice.

What SRM and IBu are you shooting for?

 

[Donoroto]

I may think about that at some point in time. I need to work out some timing and logistics so I don't burn the shit out of myself getting in a hurry when I carry it back outside and trying to figure out the scenario of what to do with the bag.
Before I mash, I have 8 gallons of water. Even after the water is absorbed by the grain, it is still 7 gallons. It is single vessel, so I don't recirculate. All the grain and the water are all mixed in together. If I pull out wort, the grain is mixed in, and it would probably burn on the stove. I could lift the bag, but I don't know how much that screws up my temps.

Nope, you need to pull water and grain for a decoction. Not just liquid.

At noted, you don’t need to do a step mash, but it does make a small but definite difference.

 

[Dave Y]

you don’t need to do a step mash, but it does make a small but definite difference

IDK... it’s not a wheat or rye beer, I’d ask here - ‘is the juice worth the squeeze’? (no pun intended)

 

[Donoroto]

IDK... it’s not a wheat or rye beer, I’d ask here - ‘is the juice worth the squeeze’? (no pun intended)

Depends. If you want to make the best beer you can, then the effort is to be made. If good enough is good enough, then that’s good enough.

That said, there’s not a lot of ‘juice’ in most beers.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I'm not going to post the link because it probably isn't fair to post the competition link to Brewers Friend, but I was reading an article from Brad Smith from BeerSmith at lunch today. Apparently, my confusion from this style is because there are two distinct regional styles in Germany: One is heavy on the Pils. The other is heavier on the Munich and darker malts. One goes heavier on the hops than the other too. There is another school of thought using 50/50 Pils and Munich as a base. That is why the recipes are all over the place, kind of like trying to learn how to brew a Saison.
The Mean Brews recipes like to be somewhere in the middle of good beers, so the one I looked at from them makes much more sense now. I have a book called the Homebrew Recipe Bible at home, and that one also seems to run in the middle. So I guess I have plenty of time to think and rethink the recipe, but online resources are fun when you find them.

 

[Dave Y]

Even Düsseldorf alt, high in hops, won’t be IPA bitter since you’re using noble hops. I have not done a high hop alt, because the one I have is a neighbor pleaser.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I would ditch one of the munichs probably munich 1 in favor of more munich 2. I generally use Vienna OR Munich as they sort of serve similar purposes in my mind. probably wouldnt bother with the aromatic, especially if you are using Munich and Vienna.

This style cries for Special X or Extra special malt IMO.

of course i would sub out the pils for 2 row...

subbing in some 300L chocolate would be very nice.

What SRM and IBu are you shooting for?

Shit, I didn't even see this until today for whatever reason. I'm shooting for 14-15 SRM, and possibly 40-42Ish IBUs. I know about BIAB and using more than a little bit of Munich won't ferment well from having done it before. I know this thing is going to finish sweet, so I wanted enough hops to offset that. I'm thinking of bittering it like an ESB but maybe a little more for the same reason as an ESB, if that makes sense. I think I do want to use some of the darker malts in small quantities, and I think I do want to keep the Vienna.
I want a malt/hop balance. From my reading Caramunich II might add a little biscuit to it.
What I have now is this:
65.4% Pils (probably the good, floor malted shit)
13.5% Munich I
7.7% Vienna
3.8% Munich II
3.8% Caramunich I

I think I want the complexity: Malt, hops, biscuit, nutty.. all of it. This sounds like ESB meets Belgian Dubbel without the higher alcohol, and I think that is exactly what I want.
3.8% Aromatic
1.9% Chocolate 350

The other funny thing is that everyone says to ferment this cold, but White Labs specifically has a 65-69 Temp Range on WLP036, so I'm thinking of starting 65-66 on this one. When the yeast company says what it likes, I ain't arguing. I love my simple BIAB, but there are certain things like Munich and adjuncts that it doesn't like, so I ain't f ing with faith based on some rumor about going cold.
Sorry about the paragraphs. The cut and paste went fu**y.

 

[Bigbre04]

lol i just say this today. it has been a crazy crazy week for me. My brew yesturday hit 87% efficiency, which is a first for my stupid little brewhouse and then the insanely hot temps outside prevented me from getting the beer over to the tank below 63f. Pitched it anyway and turned my jackets on and it dropped close to half a degree plato in about 12 hrs so not terrible...second batch today changing the opening up my mill a touch to see what the difference is on the same recipe.

rambling reply below here because i was reading about alts while i was responding lol. im gonna work up an altbier and see what it looks like.

Shit, I didn't even see this until today for whatever reason. I'm shooting for 14-15 SRM,

this is a great color target. My red lager is right at 15 srm and is a gorgeous deep red. I still need to take some pictures of the beers and post them.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1564187

my amber ale was 13 srm and looked visually darker then the red.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1514482

and possibly 40-42Ish IBUs.

I would do 30-35IBUs personally. getting up over 40 IBU might end up a little bitter.

I know about BIAB and using more than a little bit of Munich won't ferment well from having done it before. I know this thing is going to finish sweet, so I wanted enough hops to offset that. I'm thinking of bittering it like an ESB but maybe a little more for the same reason as an ESB, if that makes sense. I think I do want to use some of the darker malts in small quantities, and I think I do want to keep the Vienna.

its a super interesting grain bill, i looked at a bunch of Googled recipes and that seems to be common among them. honestly that amber that i posted above would likely qualify(flavor wise) as an alt.

I want a malt/hop balance. From my reading Caramunich II might add a little biscuit to it.
What I have now is this:
65.4% Pils (probably the good, floor malted shit)

ya ya ya ya....sounds like fancy 2row lol

13.5% Munich I
7.7% Vienna
3.8% Munich II
3.8% Caramunich I

I think I want the complexity: Malt, hops, biscuit, nutty.. all of it. This sounds like ESB meets Belgian Dubbel without the higher alcohol, and I think that is exactly what I want.

100% i was thinking its like a strange german darker vienna lager lol. I know its not traditional, but spec X would be on my high list for this because its such an interesting grain for amber colored beers.

3.8% Aromatic
1.9% Chocolate 350

Personally i would drop the chocolate to 1%(to avoid the browning) and up the Caramunich 1 to maybe 5%???? upping the Caramunich would also avoid the need for the aromatic imo.

This is such an interesting malt bill...i dont think that i have had a proper german Alt in a very very long time. Your grain bill seems to fit with all of the ones i have found, it just breaks my mind a little.

The other funny thing is that everyone says to ferment this cold, but White Labs specifically has a 65-69 Temp Range on WLP036, so I'm thinking of starting 65-66 on this one. When the yeast company says what it likes, I ain't arguing. I love my simple BIAB, but there are certain things like Munich and adjuncts that it doesn't like, so I ain't f ing with faith based on some rumor about going cold.
Sorry about the paragraphs. The cut and paste went fu**y.

ouch, that will be relatively sweet finish wise with that yeast....Personally i would probably run Chico just for the higher attenuation, but i also dont really run english yeasts for the same reason.

This is very inspiring, I think i will work up an Altbier to follow the red lager that i have on draft...with chico because...attenuation...

 

[Sandy Feet]

lol i just say this today. it has been a crazy crazy week for me. My brew yesturday hit 87% efficiency, which is a first for my stupid little brewhouse and then the insanely hot temps outside prevented me from getting the beer over to the tank below 63f. Pitched it anyway and turned my jackets on and it dropped close to half a degree plato in about 12 hrs so not terrible...second batch today changing the opening up my mill a touch to see what the difference is on the same recipe.

rambling reply below here because i was reading about alts while i was responding lol. im gonna work up an altbier and see what it looks like.

this is a great color target. My red lager is right at 15 srm and is a gorgeous deep red. I still need to take some pictures of the beers and post them.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1564187

my amber ale was 13 srm and looked visually darker then the red.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1514482

I would do 30-35IBUs personally. getting up over 40 IBU might end up a little bitter.

its a super interesting grain bill, i looked at a bunch of Googled recipes and that seems to be common among them. honestly that amber that i posted above would likely qualify(flavor wise) as an alt.

ya ya ya ya....sounds like fancy 2row lol

100% i was thinking its like a strange german darker vienna lager lol. I know its not traditional, but spec X would be on my high list for this because its such an interesting grain for amber colored beers.

Personally i would drop the chocolate to 1%(to avoid the browning) and up the Caramunich 1 to maybe 5%???? upping the Caramunich would also avoid the need for the aromatic imo.

This is such an interesting malt bill...i dont think that i have had a proper german Alt in a very very long time. Your grain bill seems to fit with all of the ones i have found, it just breaks my mind a little.

ouch, that will be relatively sweet finish wise with that yeast....Personally i would probably run Chico just for the higher attenuation, but i also dont really run english yeasts for the same reason.

This is very inspiring, I think i will work up an Altbier to follow the red lager that i have on draft...with chico because...attenuation...

But I like my fancy 2 Row

 

[Sandy Feet]

lol i just say this today. it has been a crazy crazy week for me. My brew yesturday hit 87% efficiency, which is a first for my stupid little brewhouse and then the insanely hot temps outside prevented me from getting the beer over to the tank below 63f. Pitched it anyway and turned my jackets on and it dropped close to half a degree plato in about 12 hrs so not terrible...second batch today changing the opening up my mill a touch to see what the difference is on the same recipe.

rambling reply below here because i was reading about alts while i was responding lol. im gonna work up an altbier and see what it looks like.

this is a great color target. My red lager is right at 15 srm and is a gorgeous deep red. I still need to take some pictures of the beers and post them.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1564187

my amber ale was 13 srm and looked visually darker then the red.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1514482

I would do 30-35IBUs personally. getting up over 40 IBU might end up a little bitter.

its a super interesting grain bill, i looked at a bunch of Googled recipes and that seems to be common among them. honestly that amber that i posted above would likely qualify(flavor wise) as an alt.

ya ya ya ya....sounds like fancy 2row lol

100% i was thinking its like a strange german darker vienna lager lol. I know its not traditional, but spec X would be on my high list for this because its such an interesting grain for amber colored beers.

Personally i would drop the chocolate to 1%(to avoid the browning) and up the Caramunich 1 to maybe 5%???? upping the Caramunich would also avoid the need for the aromatic imo.

This is such an interesting malt bill...i dont think that i have had a proper german Alt in a very very long time. Your grain bill seems to fit with all of the ones i have found, it just breaks my mind a little.

ouch, that will be relatively sweet finish wise with that yeast....Personally i would probably run Chico just for the higher attenuation, but i also dont really run english yeasts for the same reason.

This is very inspiring, I think i will work up an Altbier to follow the red lager that i have on draft...with chico because...attenuation...

If I decide to change the yeast, it will probably be 34/70.

 

[Bigbre04]

But I like my fancy 2 Row

woof...logistics are a pain in the ass lol