Spunding valves and Diacetyl

[Bigbre04]

So my first Spunding valved lager is on draft. It is a butter bomb (to me), nothing that i can do about it right now, but i will rebrew it without using the spunding valve and see if there is a difference.

What i am not understanding is why my normal yeast left so much diacetyl while spunding vs my standard fermentation(I will post the fermentation sheets). Both were fermented using Apex Munich Lager yeast.

has anyone had this issue before????

This is a different recipe then what i generally brew for my lager
New Recipe.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1427656
Old recipe
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/embed/1555854

 

[Over The Cliff Brewing]

Did you increase the temp for a diacetyl rest before cold crashing?

 

[Bigbre04]

Did you increase the temp for a diacetyl rest before cold crashing?

i read several places that it wasnt needed. Also the fermentation temp was high already. ill take some photos of the log.

 

[Bigbre04]

 

[Dave Y]

Munich lager strains like it c c c c c o l d. like high 40’s F to low 50’s. I get some of my fermentation on German lager strains at around 48F, including Märzen strains. I don’t think it was the lack of a diacytel rest, but overall fermented to warm for the yeast.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Pressure fermenting does affect diacetyl production. If started under pressure early, it will increase production but it will also metabolize the VDK/diacetyl compounds quicker under pressure. If you have done d-rest before, continue the d-rest with spunding. I have been spunding for years and continue to do a d-rest even when I use ALDC enzyme (it reduces VDK compounds before they become diacetyl).

I would assume there is something more happening then just spunding producing diacetyl. When I spund my lagers I raise the temp to 58-60F and the pressure hits 25 PSI. It's a little apeshit, but it works. ALDC is another option, but it is an added expense (it works really good).

 

[Bigbre04]

Pressure fermenting does affect diacetyl production. If started under pressure early, it will increase production but it will also metabolize the VDK/diacetyl compounds quicker under pressure. If you have done d-rest before, continue the d-rest with spunding. I have been spunding for years and continue to do a d-rest even when I use ALDC enzyme (it reduces VDK compounds before they become diacetyl).

I would assume there is something more happening then just spunding producing diacetyl. When I spund my lagers I raise the temp to 58-60F and the pressure hits 25 PSI. It's a little apeshit, but it works. ALDC is another option, but it is an added expense (it works really good).

what pressure do you generally set the valve to?

I generally dont have todo a diacetyl rest with the munich yeast, but i am fermenting at the very top of its range. I use the munich lager yeast in all of my lagers.

i think the problem that i ran into is that i didnt give it enough time without pressure. But it seems that every single person you ask has a different definition of how to spund a batch. there are also some yeasties that just do not behave while spunding.

I also may have not given it enough time "warm" or atleast at fermetation temps to clean it up as i was really pressed on this batch. I got repeating gravs, but i should have probably left it warm for a few days after fermentation completed.

Munich lager strains like it c c c c c o l d. like high 40’s F to low 50’s. I get some of my fermentation on German lager strains at around 48F, including Märzen strains. I don’t think it was the lack of a diacytel rest, but overall fermented to warm for the yeast.

I have used this yeast in the warm range many times with good results. what i was mainly after with the spunding was the crisp ester free lager flavor without actually needing to lager the beer.

I found this article:
https://www.asianbeernetwork.com/spunding-beer-during-fermentation/

I really need to dig into that and write out some SOPs for each lager yeast that i use as far as fermentation schedule.

 

[Bigbre04]

I also have not calibrated my temp controllers. That controller reads 5F high. so the 18c is really closer to 60f.

This is good motivation to actually dig in and find an english translation for my german temp controllers so that i can maybe figure out how to change the offset.....

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

what pressure do you generally set the valve to?

I pressure ferment with Fermentis 34/70 or Wyeast 2124. Both yeast work really well under pressure and both are a Weinhenstephan variant. Not all yeasts do well under pressure. There is no reason to put any ale yeasts under pressure, at least in my mind.

If you are fermenting in a larger, deeper vessel, the pressure should be reduced. The idea behind the pressure fermentation is to increase dissolved co2 to cause the yeast to reduce ester and high alcohol production. If you are getting good result with your Munich Lager strain in your current vessel, there is no reason to ferment under pressure until the very end when the beer is closer to terminal gravity. As you are getting close to terminal gravity you can place the spunding valve on the fermenter outlet and build pressure. Most commercial vessels are limited to 15 PSI, you may not get the amount of carbonation as you would in a vessel that can take 30 PSI. The nice thing about the spunding vale is that you don't have to know exactly how much gravity is left to get the right amount of carbonation, just set the valve to the pressure you want or can take, and let it finish.

I ferment in Sanke kegs, so I have no advantage of any hydrostatic pressure that taller vessels have. So I have start out at zero and let the pressure come up to 7-9 PSI. I let the beer ferment @ 50-52F for 7 days and then I bring up the pressure and temperature at the same time. It finishes at 60F @ 25PSI on day 12-14. I operate by the seat of my pants, but I don't have to make a living at it. I'm in it for the fun....and the beer.

 

[Bigbre04]

I pressure ferment with Fermentis 34/70 or Wyeast 2124. Both yeast work really well under pressure and both are a Weinhenstephan variant. Not all yeasts do well under pressure. There is no reason to put any ale yeasts under pressure, at least in my mind.

agreed, only think i could think of is if you are looking for a style with damn near no esters or maybe cheating something. Brewing a lager style with ale yeast for speed. Which i might actually do on thursday in order to pull the butter bomb off... or i should probably just cool ferment a golden ale with chico...

If you are fermenting in a larger, deeper vessel, the pressure should be reduced. The idea behind the pressure fermentation is to increase dissolved co2 to cause the yeast to reduce ester and high alcohol production. If you are getting good result with your Munich Lager strain in your current vessel, there is no reason to ferment under pressure until the very end when the beer is closer to terminal gravity. As you are getting close to terminal gravity you can place the spunding valve on the fermenter outlet and build pressure. Most commercial vessels are limited to 15 PSI, you may not get the amount of carbonation as you would in a vessel that can take 30 PSI. The nice thing about the spunding vale is that you don't have to know exactly how much gravity is left to get the right amount of carbonation, just set the valve to the pressure you want or can take, and let it finish.

im running 3.5bbl tanks so not big enough to matter.

I was looking to reduce ester production while maintaining my current speed of fermentation. In theory i was trying to speed up my lagers that dont get time to lager.

My tanks working pressure is 15 psi but they are tested up to 30 psi. One of the owners is a sanitary welder and looked it over and said send it. as far as 18psi was concerned. all of my PRVRs are set to roughly 20psi.

I think i may try the spunding in the last half? alot of choices to make.

I ferment in Sanke kegs, so I have no advantage of any hydrostatic pressure that taller vessels have. So I have start out at zero and let the pressure come up to 7-9 PSI. I let the beer ferment @ 50-52F for 7 days and then I bring up the pressure and temperature at the same time. It finishes at 60F @ 25PSI on day 12-14. I operate by the seat of my pants, but I don't have to make a living at it. I'm in it for the fun....and the beer.

I will have more time tomorrow to dig into this stuff...hopefully.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

im running 3.5bbl tanks so not big enough to matter.

I was looking to reduce ester production while maintaining my current speed of fermentation

Actually, even a 3.5bbl can reduce ester when compared with a homebrew setup.

You may want to try a different yeast for this. This podcast about Fermentis 34/70 is really interesting:

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/216

I have come to brew more lagers and even IPA's with this yeast. It is really amazing how clean and lager like it is when fermented warm. After listening to this I found out I might be over pitching and fermenting too cold.

I think i may try the spunding in the last half?

Or last 10%, just enough to get it carb'd up.

 

[Bigbre04]

Actually, even a 3.5bbl can reduce ester when compared with a homebrew setup.

interesting. makes sense though.

You may want to try a different yeast for this. This podcast about Fermentis 34/70 is really interesting:

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/216

i will def check that out. i love that podcast. not sure on fermentis though. i really like the apex munich and it is so damn cheap its hard to beat.

I have come to brew more lagers and even IPA's with this yeast. It is really amazing how clean and lager like it is when fermented warm. After listening to this I found out I might be over pitching and fermenting too cold.

I am def overpitching, but that has generally been a good thing, getting super fast turn times. Lagers Grain to glass <10 days, Ales(chico) ~5 days, Voss 3-4 days or ipa with dryhop 7 days. all very consistent. getting >80% attenuation generally. Unless its english or mex lager yeasties.

Or last 10%, just enough to get it carb'd up.

so i tasted the beer this morning and it seems like it has cleaned itself up...i wonder if this will happen on each keg????

I am thinking that instead of scrambling and cranking out a golden ale to fill the slot, i will brew my Black lager on friday and then next week i will brew more golden next week.

On a side note, one of my kitchen guys smashed 2 of my hydrometers. So damn stressful. I have a backup cheap triple scale hydrometer. I have no idea how people use those, they are at best a guess. Rant complete. I have 4 new hydrometers in the mail, but man not having them is so annoying.

 

[Sandy Feet]

Actually, even a 3.5bbl can reduce ester when compared with a homebrew setup.

You may want to try a different yeast for this. This podcast about Fermentis 34/70 is really interesting:

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/216

I have come to brew more lagers and even IPA's with this yeast. It is really amazing how clean and lager like it is when fermented warm. After listening to this I found out I might be over pitching and fermenting too cold.

Or last 10%, just enough to get it carb'd up.

Josh and I were BSing about 34/70 a few times. We weren't necessarily discussing under pressure, but Josh said that he had good results in the higher range with that yeast.
We had a cold snap at the end of January when I was brewing something very close to a Festbier. I couldn't get the temp in the refrigerator much beyond 60, and in the 50s, that beer was SUPER clean. I do pitch very heavy with that yeast so it will start quickly, and I like what it has done.
It doesn't probably add much to your pressure discussion, but I did want to add the 2 cents about the yeast.
I know BigBre is on a budget doing it for a living, and that stuff is a little more expensive. I still have to give the dude some shit once in a while

 

[Bigbre04]

Josh and I were BSing about 34/70 a few times. We weren't necessarily discussing under pressure, but Josh said that he had good results in the higher range with that yeast.
We had a cold snap at the end of January when I was brewing something very close to a Festbier. I couldn't get the temp in the refrigerator much beyond 60, and in the 50s, that beer was SUPER clean. I do pitch very heavy with that yeast so it will start quickly, and I like what it has done.
It doesn't probably add much to your pressure discussion, but I did want to add the 2 cents about the yeast.
I know BigBre is on a budget doing it for a living, and that stuff is a little more expensive. I still have to give the dude some shit once in a while

looks like i can get it for about $100 for a 500g brick. roughly double the Apex. Still not terrible price wise. I think the apex is based off a similar yeast strain.

The faster that I can go from grain to glass the better. I can ferement very cold if i need to, but at those temps what are you looking at for time????

Once i have time and space i will try voss or chico with the spunding valve. From what im reading i may be able to make a cheater lager that way, which would shave several days off the process.

Im not so much on a budget, im more constrained by my space and equipment. I have to essentially brew on demand without the space to store much excess beer.

 

[Sandy Feet]

I don't push mine to be fast, but I can brew a lager in the time it takes to brew an ale. I let mine sit for 14 days in the fermenter, but they are probably done quicker than that. Mine are noticeably better when they can sit in the keg for a couple of weeks. If you can brew it and let it sit behind something waiting for a line to open, it might be worth a try to experiment with one or two 34/70 batches to see what happens. I loved it in a German style beer. I really loved it with a very simple Vienna Lager.

 

[Bigbre04]

I don't push mine to be fast, but I can brew a lager in the time it takes to brew an ale. I let mine sit for 14 days in the fermenter, but they are probably done quicker than that. Mine are noticeably better when they can sit in the keg for a couple of weeks. If you can brew it and let it sit behind something waiting for a line to open, it might be worth a try to experiment with one or two 34/70 batches to see what happens. I loved it in a German style beer. I really loved it with a very simple Vienna Lager.

I do my best to give lagers the time that they deserve, but i can only fit them in the cooler when there is one keg left on the draft line since i can only fit 2 rows deep x 2 high with the one 5th keg on top of the double stack. depending on the beer and the time of year, this can last a few days to a few weeks. I also only have 4 unis so space is fairly tight. especially at the height of the summer when we are moving a ton of beer. i have to brew a double batch(4bbls) of the golden lager every month.

I have a mexican lager on as well as my golden lager right now which has spread the demand out between the 2. this gives me a bit of a breather on brewing them. So now i have to brew a single of the golden lager and a single of another lager every month lol.

I am pumped that my double lager has gotten so much time to age, and it would have had more if i hadnt pulled 2 kegs of belgian tripel to "age" in the corner of the cooler. the tripel moves slow since its 9.2% and we serve it in 10 oz pours, people really like it though. I am debating serving the double in a 10 oz glass since its 7.7% abv, but the costs on it were pretty low so i will probably serve it by the pint, i will likely brew a second batch of the double eventually.

I will def order a block or 2 when i order something from BSG next.

 

[Dave Y]

Definitely watching this, as I have a pressure capable fermenter now.

 

[Bigbre04]

Definitely watching this, as I have a pressure capable fermenter now.

i will update it once i get my mex lager on draft. I will dig into this topic once i get some time!