Purging secondary

[Brewer #413999]

Use a double-holed stopper and two airlocks. Fill the first airlock with water as usual, and leave the second empty. As primary fermentation slows, CO2 from the fermenter will displace oxygen in the headspace and fill the empty airlock. This creates a slight positive pressure, minimizing air exchange.

 

[Brewer #413999]

Avoid unnecessary racking between primary and secondary. Each transfer introduces potential for oxygen pickup. Consider skipping secondary altogether if your primary fermenter can handle the extended timeline.

 

[Minbari]

Use a double-holed stopper and two airlocks. Fill the first airlock with water as usual, and leave the second empty. As primary fermentation slows, CO2 from the fermenter will displace oxygen in the headspace and fill the empty airlock. This creates a slight positive pressure, minimizing air exchange.

Don't do this. The whole point of an airlock is to l o c k out air. An empty air lock will allow free exchange of oxygen, bacteria and wild yeast into the fermenter, exactly what you are trying to avoid.
One is sufficient

Also, make sure the "water" is starsan. If you have any suck back, you want it sanitized

 

[Craigerrr]

Don't do this. The whole point of an airlock is to l o c k out air. An empty air lock will allow free exchange of oxygen, bacteria and wild yeast into the fermenter, exactly what you are trying to avoid.
One is sufficient

Also, make sure the "water" is starsan. If you have any suck back, you want it sanitized

I wonder if this the type of setup @brewer#413999 was referring to

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

More than 3 weeks of fermenting on the trub creates off flavors and its better to rack to a secondary.

I'm probably piling on, but.... The risk of oxidizing the beer is a much more of a concern than leaving the beer on the yeast cake. There is no reason you can't carb and age it in the bottle. Yes, these beers can tolerate some oxidation, but you should never get careless with them. As the beer ages it will oxidize and add a level of complexity to it, but it should be limited as much as possible.

The biggest concern of transferring to secondary is oxygen pick up. The instructions in the NB kit have likely not been updated for a decade. Homebrewers have become very aware of the effects of post fermentation oxygen and are doing what they can to limit it. One of the most effective way is to limit handling the beer in anyway that exposes it to the atmosphere. It's not the easiest thing to do, but it can keep a good beer from going to a "WTF happened?" beer.

 

[Minbari]

I wonder if this the type of setup @brewer#413999 was referring to
View attachment 27744

If he meant that, then ok. Good way to prevent suckback.

But, he said to use a stopper with two holes in it and two airlocks , so I doubt it

 

[Minbari]

I'm probably piling on, but.... The risk of oxidizing the beer is a much more of a concern than leaving the beer on the yeast cake. There is no reason you can't carb and age it in the bottle. Yes, these beers can tolerate some oxidation, but you should never get careless with them. As the beer ages it will oxidize and add a level of complexity to it, but it should be limited as much as possible.

The biggest concern of transferring to secondary is oxygen pick up. The instructions in the NB kit have likely not been updated for a decade. Homebrewers have become very aware of the effects of post fermentation oxygen and are doing what they can to limit it. One of the most effective way is to limit handling the beer in anyway that exposes it to the atmosphere. It's not the easiest thing to do, but it can keep a good beer from going to a "WTF happened?" beer.

This! Unless you are heavily dry hoppin (which shouldn't be until the last 3 days anyway) that 3 weeks rule is nonsense

 

[Bigbre04]

I'm probably piling on, but.... The risk of oxidizing the beer is a much more of a concern than leaving the beer on the yeast cake. There is no reason you can't carb and age it in the bottle. Yes, these beers can tolerate some oxidation, but you should never get careless with them. As the beer ages it will oxidize and add a level of complexity to it, but it should be limited as much as possible.

The biggest concern of transferring to secondary is oxygen pick up. The instructions in the NB kit have likely not been updated for a decade. Homebrewers have become very aware of the effects of post fermentation oxygen and are doing what they can to limit it. One of the most effective way is to limit handling the beer in anyway that exposes it to the atmosphere. It's not the easiest thing to do, but it can keep a good beer from going to a "WTF happened?" beer.

agreed. There is no need to transfer off of the yeast unless you are doing finings, lagering, or adding random shit(looking at you bacon beer). That being said, I would transfer off of a dryhop if you dont have time to bottle/keg it, but you run the risk of O2 pickup. You are really playing the "which tastes worse to you" game there.

I actually transferred to a bright for the first time in 93 batches this week, but that was because I am lagering that batch and wont have space to keg it for about a month.

I frequently carbonate my beers in the same tank that they fermented in(often still with the Dryhop on them), but im Carbonating and packing either the same day or very soon after. Also my gear is glycol jacketed so it stays cool and i shouldnt have any issues with Autolysis due to my size.

 

[Zambi]

Interesting discussion here
Now is autolysis and subsequent yeast off flavours a real issue on homebrew scale?
Or is it a commercial thing, with big tanks and more weight (pressure) on the dead yeast cells due to beer amount on top of it.
And if it is, wouldn't fermenting under pressure for an extended time cause the same issues?.

Apologies to OP.
Your thread has gone into things you might never have expected, but it's hopefully still interesting.
If not, then please let us know

 

[Bigbre04]

Interesting discussion here
Now is autolysis and subsequent yeast off flavours a real issue on homebrew scale?
Or is it a commercial thing, with big tanks and more weight (pressure) on the dead yeast cells due to beer amount on top of it.
And if it is, wouldn't fermenting under pressure for an extended time cause the same issues?.

Apologies to OP.
Your thread has gone into things you might never have expected, but it's hopefully still interesting.
If not, then please let us know

Ya it's a commercial thing. My little 4bbl tanks are not big enough to have a problem with it, but a 30 or a 90 would for sure.

It's the weight but also the yeast will sort of insulate and cook itself. Most large tanks don't have jacket down in the very tip of the cone.

I don't know enough about fermenting under pressure to say, but i think it has more todo with the yeast dying and cooking then pressure, but it's been a min since school.

 

[Minbari]

Ya it's a commercial thing. My little 4bbl tanks are not big enough to have a problem with it, but a 30 or a 90 would for sure.

It's the weight but also the yeast will sort of insulate and cook itself. Most large tanks don't have jacket down in the very tip of the cone.

I don't know enough about fermenting under pressure to say, but i think it has more todo with the yeast dying and cooking then pressure, but it's been a min since school.

I am sure it is a thing. Also sure it doesn't happen in 3 weeks

 

[Bigbre04]

I am sure it is a thing. Also sure it doesn't happen in 3 weeks

Nope just did some reading on it. It takes a while, but pressure can certainly accelerate it.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

This conversation really intrigues me...

So what should we expect the difference to be in the finished beer between:

a) transferring an Imperial Stout to a secondary "brite" vessel and aging for 6+ months before priming and bottling
vs.
b) priming and bottling an Imperial Stout after fermentation is over and then aging in bottles for 6+ months.

Would flavors develop differently carbed vs. uncarbed? Should we expect more oxidative notes in the brite vessel version? Would the "b" version take longer to develop and smooth out?

I would imagine there wouldn't be much difference between the two methods. But I would love someone to test this theory. I would except for one thing: The W00t Stout I brew has bourbon-soaked oak cubes (actually oak-soaked bourbon) added in secondary. That almost requires a fermenter as it would be a pain to dose each bottle. If I decide to brew a Wee Heavy instead, and I remember this post, I'll do it.

 

[Triskele]

I've not brewed an Imperial Stout but every year (except this one ) I brew either a Scottish Wee Heavy or a w00t Stout. I transfer those to a glass carboy for bulk aging (4-9 months). The long bulk aging allows for complex flavors to develop. I would use a secondary vessel (preferable glass due to it being impervious to oxygen) if you plan to ferment longer than 6 weeks. You can go longer in the primary fermentor but, I don't really know where that limit is. When transferring to a secondary vessel, be very focused on sanitation and leave very little head space. The small head space is important because you don't have the benefit of very active yeast consuming what oxygen you will introduce when you transfer. But, on the other hand, don't stress too much about oxidation either. Any big beer big enough to bulk age is a beer that will help hide a little oxidation. Not to say you should ignore it, just don't freak out about it. One last suggestion. When bottling a beer you've bulk aged, add yeast when bottling. After months in secondary, there may not be enough healthy yeast cells to consume the priming sugar. I use CBC-1. It is neutral yeast with a high alcohol tolerance. Avoid champaign yeasts because they will ferment sugars that are unfermentable to regular beer yeasts. So you will likely over-carbonate your beer.

Edit: I have to start proof-reading my posts before I hit "Post". I got it wrong in the first few words....W00t Stout IS an Imperial Stout.

Tying up 2 cases of bottles to condition my stout for 4+ months is not real appealing to me. I like the idea of using a 5 gallon carboy to condition then bottle when I'm ready sounds good to me.

 

[Zambi]

Tying up 2 cases of bottles to condition my stout for 4+ months is not real appealing to me. I like the idea of using a 5 gallon carboy to condition then bottle when I'm ready sounds good to me.

I would be the opposite as I got loads of bottles, but not that many fermenters
Luckily I don't need to decide as I don't like stouts

 

[Triskele]

Tying up 2 cases of bottles to condition my stout for 4+ months is not real appealing to me. I like the idea of using a 5 gallon carboy to condition then bottle when I'm ready sounds good to me.

I've not brewed an Imperial Stout but every year (except this one ) I brew either a Scottish Wee Heavy or a w00t Stout. I transfer those to a glass carboy for bulk aging (4-9 months). The long bulk aging allows for complex flavors to develop. I would use a secondary vessel (preferable glass due to it being impervious to oxygen) if you plan to ferment longer than 6 weeks. You can go longer in the primary fermentor but, I don't really know where that limit is. When transferring to a secondary vessel, be very focused on sanitation and leave very little head space. The small head space is important because you don't have the benefit of very active yeast consuming what oxygen you will introduce when you transfer. But, on the other hand, don't stress too much about oxidation either. Any big beer big enough to bulk age is a beer that will help hide a little oxidation. Not to say you should ignore it, just don't freak out about it. One last suggestion. When bottling a beer you've bulk aged, add yeast when bottling. After months in secondary, there may not be enough healthy yeast cells to consume the priming sugar. I use CBC-1. It is neutral yeast with a high alcohol tolerance. Avoid champaign yeasts because they will ferment sugars that are unfermentable to regular beer yeasts. So you will likely over-carbonate your beer.

Edit: I have to start proof-reading my posts before I hit "Post". I got it wrong in the first few words....W00t Stout IS an Imperial Stout.

If I were to rack 5.5 gal to my 5 gal glass carboy for long term conditioning (6+ months) could I bring the level up to near the top (to reduce air space) using some Jim Beam? I think it would only require 5 or 6 oz. Would this have any neg effects on the residual yeast still present in the beer?

 

[Minbari]

If I were to rack 5.5 gal to my 5 gal glass carboy for long term conditioning (6+ months) could I bring the level up to near the top (to reduce air space) using some Jim Beam? I think it would only require 5 or 6 oz. Would this have any neg effects on the residual yeast still present in the beer?

You could even use water as long as you boiled it.

Make sure you put that carboy in the dark or cover it. Aging in clear glass will result in skunked beer

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

If I were to rack 5.5 gal to my 5 gal glass carboy for long term conditioning (6+ months) could I bring the level up to near the top (to reduce air space) using some Jim Beam? I think it would only require 5 or 6 oz. Would this have any neg effects on the residual yeast still present in the beer?

That's what I do with my W00t Stout. Before racking to secondary, I soak medium-toasted oak cubes in Jim Beam for a week or two. Then I top off the fermenter with the infused bourbon until there is only about a 1/2" air gap. Once diluted into 5.5 gallons of beer, the additional alcohol added by the bourbon would be negligible. You could use vodka if you didn't want to affect the flavor. But I think the flavor and aroma of bourbon, whether infused with oak, vanilla, etc., would be awesome in an Imperial Stout.

 

[Triskele]

I've not brewed an Imperial Stout but every year (except this one ) I brew either a Scottish Wee Heavy or a w00t Stout. I transfer those to a glass carboy for bulk aging (4-9 months). The long bulk aging allows for complex flavors to develop. I would use a secondary vessel (preferable glass due to it being impervious to oxygen) if you plan to ferment longer than 6 weeks. You can go longer in the primary fermentor but, I don't really know where that limit is. When transferring to a secondary vessel, be very focused on sanitation and leave very little head space. The small head space is important because you don't have the benefit of very active yeast consuming what oxygen you will introduce when you transfer. But, on the other hand, don't stress too much about oxidation either. Any big beer big enough to bulk age is a beer that will help hide a little oxidation. Not to say you should ignore it, just don't freak out about it. One last suggestion. When bottling a beer you've bulk aged, add yeast when bottling. After months in secondary, there may not be enough healthy yeast cells to consume the priming sugar. I use CBC-1. It is neutral yeast with a high alcohol tolerance. Avoid champaign yeasts because they will ferment sugars that are unfermentable to regular beer yeasts. So you will likely over-carbonate your beer.

Edit: I have to start proof-reading my posts before I hit "Post". I got it wrong in the first few words....W00t Stout IS an Imperial Stout.

I contacted Northern Brewer about adding bottling yeast to the stout after conditioning in my secondary (+6 months). They suggesting that when bottling that I should use sanitized tweezers to add a few grains of yeast per bottle rather than mixing the yeast

I've not brewed an Imperial Stout but every year (except this one ) I brew either a Scottish Wee Heavy or a w00t Stout. I transfer those to a glass carboy for bulk aging (4-9 months). The long bulk aging allows for complex flavors to develop. I would use a secondary vessel (preferable glass due to it being impervious to oxygen) if you plan to ferment longer than 6 weeks. You can go longer in the primary fermentor but, I don't really know where that limit is. When transferring to a secondary vessel, be very focused on sanitation and leave very little head space. The small head space is important because you don't have the benefit of very active yeast consuming what oxygen you will introduce when you transfer. But, on the other hand, don't stress too much about oxidation either. Any big beer big enough to bulk age is a beer that will help hide a little oxidation. Not to say you should ignore it, just don't freak out about it. One last suggestion. When bottling a beer you've bulk aged, add yeast when bottling. After months in secondary, there may not be enough healthy yeast cells to consume the priming sugar. I use CBC-1. It is neutral yeast with a high alcohol tolerance. Avoid champaign yeasts because they will ferment sugars that are unfermentable to regular beer yeasts. So you will likely over-carbonate your beer.

Edit: I have to start proof-reading my posts before I hit "Post". I got it wrong in the first few words....W00t Stout IS an Imperial Stout.

I contacted Northern Brewers and they suggested that I use a sanitized tweezer and add a couple of grains of CBC-1 to each bottle when I bottle the stout after aging in my secondary glass carboy.

 

[BarbarianBrewer]

I contacted Northern Brewer about adding bottling yeast to the stout after conditioning in my secondary (+6 months). They suggesting that when bottling that I should use sanitized tweezers to add a few grains of yeast per bottle rather than mixing the yeast

I contacted Northern Brewers and they suggested that I use a sanitized tweezer and add a couple of grains of CBC-1 to each bottle when I bottle the stout after aging in my secondary glass carboy.

I can see why they would say that. It's hard to get even distribution of yeast grains throughout the bottling bucket. However, I'm not sure I have the patience to add a couple grains of yeast to 50+ bottles.