PID Settles 1.5 degrees F too Hot

[Nosybear]

Okay, question for all you control experts: I've run the autotune cycle on my PID twice over the last couple days after finally getting the temperature on the controller to read what I measure in the tun with my ThermoWorks Chef Alarm. Each time, one run with water and the other with a "junk" mash, the final temperature settles about 1.5 degrees above the set point. I could simply set the temperature lower to compensate but somehow think there must be a way to adjust the unit to have it settle at or very near the set point rather than 1.5 degrees above.

The PID is a Mypin TA4. The documentation is spectacularly unhelpful, as is most I can find on the Web. So my question to you control system experts out there: What setting or settings do I need to change and in which direction to get the system to settle at (or within a half degree or so) of the set point?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Hawkbox]

He's a witch! Get him!

 

[Nosybear]

He's a witch! Get him!

A good witch, or a bad witch?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

So the temperature is reading correctly but the output settles at +1.5 degrees above set point?

Your right about the info out there, the manual is pretty bad. The only thing I could see that might make a difference is the control hysteresis setting. If it can be set to zero, then set it at zero. This is the window where temp is allowed to “float”. I don’t remember seeing it on mine (Watlow), but it’s been a while.

Your proportional, integral and derivative values should change after auto tuning, that’s how you know it saved the settings after auto tuning. I remember mine took about 30-45 minutes to tune. After it tuned, the temperature just climbed, so I put back into operation mode and it worked a lot better then before tuning. The other thing that the Watlow did, was to tune around a set point. I set mine to 150F as a center temperature for tuning.

If it can’t control to the set point temperature, it may be a bad unit. There is not a lot of settings in a PID, it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out. Good luck!

 

[Nosybear]

Working on it - I found a bunch of engineering sites that explain P, I and D much better than the documentation. Lowering I should reduce the steady-state error, the difference I'm seeing.

 

[Bubba Wade]

Okay, there are a couple of things to consider if your temperature reading is accurate.

First, is the temperature that you are controlling a vat or vessel temperature or is it a temperature of wort/water flowing through a line?

Here's how the P, I, and D work.

P responds proportionally to the amount of error between the setpoint and the measured value. If the MV changes, the output changes by a proportional amount. If the MV does not change, the P doesn't do anything. If P is set too high, you could cause temperature swings.

I responds based on the collective accumulated error. By increasing I, the controller will respond to a steady state error and gradually change the output until the MV is at setpoint. If you set I too high, oscillation can occur. When I is set "just right", the MV will gradually go to the setpoint. If I is set to zero, the MV will never hit the SP.

D responds to the derivative of the MV. D should not be used on noisy variables or those that change a lot.

If the temperature being controller is in a vat or large vessel, you have a fair amount of thermal mass. This is helped by using the "D" in PID. "D" is for Derivative and is looking at the change in temperature. For large vessels, the derivative sees the temperature increasing and starts cooling before the temperature is too far away from setpoint.

If the temperature being controller is flowing in a pipe, you do not want to use derivative. Period.

In short, I would try bumping up the I if everything is working well other than the offset from setpoint. You'll need to check the units on I. Some controllers use repeats per minutes and others use seconds per repeat. If in repeats/minute, increase the value to have more integral action, if in seconds per repeat, decrease the value to have more integral action.

This is probably more than you want to know, but I can explain further if needed. I have only been doing controls work for the last 37 years.

 

[Nosybear]

Thanks, Bubba Wade, for the explanation. I got it set, at least for a mash tun full of water. By reducing the integral setting, the mash temp came down to the set point. I'll work on it next brew, now that I know what to set.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Anyone know if you can wire in a PT-100 probe into a Berm Rex-c100 Pid? I've only got two pins for the probe and the PT100 has three as you see I just Dubbled up the blue wires.
I have tried just using them sepperate both same result. Sensor is just Saying 20c

Maybe I have to change to probe type in the Pid settings ? Even though Manuel says customised...

 

[Minbari]

Putting both blue will not likely work. There are 2, 3 wire rtd and 4 wire. If the controller only supports 2 wire. Buy a 2 wire

 

[GFHomebrew]

Putting both blue will not likely work. There are 2, 3 wire rtd and 4 wire. If the controller only supports 2 wire. Buy a 2 wire

Yeah I think that's the case mate bloody Nora

This bloke explains how to change probe type

 

[Bubba Wade]

With a 3-wire RTD, the resistance is measured across the blue/orange or red/white wires. For compensation and greater accuracy, the third wire is used to measure the resistance of the wire, usually on long circuits. If you only have a 2-wire input, you simply hook up only two wires (different colored ones).

 

[GFHomebrew]

With a 3-wire RTD, the resistance is measured across the blue/orange or red/white wires. For compensation and greater accuracy, the third wire is used to measure the resistance of the wire, usually on long circuits. If you only have a 2-wire input, you simply hook up only two wires (different colored ones).

I did that and it didn't seem to register Any change in temp when probe was in hot water maybe I'll go back and change it up reverse the red and blue wires incase I had it backwards

Oh bubba see mine dont have terminals for Alarm and third for sensor can I wire into the circuit i think I saw sometime on one of the forums on that...

 

[Bubba Wade]

Do you have a termination diagram? Switching the red and blue will not make any difference on a 2-wire setup.

 

[GFHomebrew]

Do you have a termination diagram? Switching the red and blue will not make any difference on a 2-wire setup.

No it didn't I switched back to my K Type sensor it must only support this probe type.
I want to get an EZ boil PID or similar down the track will use it on that.

Thanks for your advice Bubba