Water Profile in View and on Printout

[Craigerrr]

Thank you for the effort Don, I do appreciate it.

@Pricelessbrewing and @Yooper
There is clearly a work around required here on water requirements, supported by the comment above from @Sunfire96
Leaving the recipe to link to this calculator, or that calculator, or even just having to separately consult a calculator on brew day as Annabrit does isn't a terrible burden, but it should alert you to the fact that your brewing software needs attention.
I will drop this now, and maybe come back and see what has developed in a years time.
You may be thinking, we have Craig's money anyway, and he is the only one complaining.
I would challenge you though to make your software, better, more intuitive, and seamless.
As I have mentioned, I would like to come back and use the software here, but...
I have no inclination to try and figure out what I need to do to make the Brewers Friend software work for me.
The software I am currently using is seamless, and intuitive.
It calculates everything based on recipe input without having to work around anything.
I have kept up my subscription with Brewers Friend because I value the community here, and the support that I get there from the membership, including both of you.
Cheers,
Craigerrr

 

[Yooper]

Thank you for the effort Don, I do appreciate it.

@Pricelessbrewing and @Yooper
There is clearly a work around required here on water requirements, supported by the comment above from @Sunfire96
Leaving the recipe to link to this calculator, or that calculator, or even just having to separately consult a calculator on brew day as Annabrit does isn't a terrible burden, but it should alert you to the fact that your brewing software needs attention.
I will drop this now, and maybe come back and see what has developed in a years time.
You may be thinking, we have Craig's money anyway, and he is the only one complaining.
I would challenge you though to make your software, better, more intuitive, and seamless.
As I have mentioned, I would like to come back and use the software here, but...
I have no inclination to try and figure out what I need to do to make the Brewers Friend software work for me.
The software I am currently using is seamless, and intuitive.
It calculates everything based on recipe input without having to work around anything.
I have kept up my subscription with Brewers Friend because I value the community here, and the support that I get there from the membership, including both of you.
Cheers,
Craigerrr

I understand- and we are working on the water calculator for both the apps and the site right now. We will be removing the 'link/update' recipe clunky business for example. I'm not happy to hear that you're not using the software, and we do take every suggestion and criticism very seriously. We have a lot going on right now behind the scenes to update, declutter, and increaase accuracy of the calculations.

 

[Craigerrr]

I understand- and we are working on the water calculator for both the apps and the site right now. We will be removing the 'link/update' recipe clunky business for example. I'm not happy to hear that you're not using the software, and we do take every suggestion and criticism very seriously. We have a lot going on right now behind the scenes to update, declutter, and increaase accuracy of the calculations.

Thanks for the reply.
I moved to the "other" software back when things went haywire here, I will give it another look down the road sometime.

 

[Sunfire96]

Just adding on to Craig's list if that's alright...I've never been able to change the projected FG by changing desired mash temp. I'm not sure if this software is capable of that calculation, but it'd be a nice feature
I imagine it needs to be similar to the pre and post boil calculations that require an "auto" button for the result, so that manual input is still accepted.

 

[Craigerrr]

Just adding on to Craig's list if that's alright...I've never been able to change the projected FG by changing desired mash temp. I'm not sure if this software is capable of that calculation, but it'd be a nice feature
I imagine it needs to be similar to the pre and post boil calculations that require an "auto" button for the result, so that manual input is still accepted.

Mash temp should definitely change FG automatically

 

[Megary]

Mash temp should definitely change FG automatically

So how do other calculators figure for mash temp and fermentability? Is it based on temp only? Does the yeast selection matter? Does the grain bill make a difference? Mash time? Fermentation temp? Pitch rate? Etc.

I get the idea of higher mash temps = higher FG. But it seems to me there is a lot that needs to be taken into consideration. Just curious how this is all calculated.

 

[Craigerrr]

So how do other calculators figure for mash temp and fermentability? Is it based on temp only? Does the yeast selection matter? Does the grain bill make a difference? Mash time? Fermentation temp? Pitch rate? Etc.

I get the idea of higher mash temps = higher FG. But it seems to me there is a lot that needs to be taken into consideration. Just curious how this is all calculated.

I just double checked, the software I use adjusts predicted FG based on changes in mash temperature.
Can't say specifically how accurate it is, but it is of course just a prediction, real life varies, and it always will.
There is already plenty going on in the software to predict FG, adding code to account for another known variable should be part of the software as well.
Yes?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

one variable in the final gravity is the yeast attenuation

 

[Yooper]

Studies show that mash temp really doesn't make a huge difference in FG as much as the actual ingredients themselves. By adjusting the yeast attenuation, the FG automatically will correct. For example, the yeasts in the database only give an average attenuation. So say the yeast strain you chose has an average attenuation of White Lab's California Ale Yeast (one of my favorites).

Well, that's a HUGE range, and so while the average is 79% I may get 73% with my ingredients, additions, water, fermentation temperature, etc but you may get 85% attenuation. Mash temp may or may not impact it somewhat, but not as much as simple sugars, the amount of unfermentables, the density of the wort, etc.

I've had days where my mash was a little too warm (oops!) or dropped temperature fast, my mash pH was a little higher than ideal, etc, and I've unfortunately accidentally mashed ata 160F whem my thermometer was off. I never really got very meaningful differences in FG from the mash temp variations except for huge extremes like doing a protein rest at a lower temperature than 131F.

This is a hard thing to verify except anecdotally, but note that most beers we mash at a lower temperature to enhance beta amylase tend to be beers with ingredients like adjuncts (corn, rice) or simple sugars. In addition, there is a great overlap in the beta amylase and alpha amylase active temperatures, with beta amylase actually not denatured until about 167F. Alpha amylase also denatures at about 167F also, and is more active at the higher range of mash temps.

Older common knowledge does say that mash low and long for thinner body and better attenuation, and high for more body and less attenuation. But it really doesn't matter all that much compared to the ingredients used in the beer, except for perhaps huge extremes (say, 145F vs 160F).

 

[Craigerrr]

Are you suggesting that mashing at 156F will yield the same FG as mashing at 146F?
Of course the yeast attenuation is given as a range. I would challenge you that the range is dependant, at least in part, to mash temperature, pH, and other factors Iam sure. I can only tell you that in my real world experience mash temperature affects FG.

 

[Yooper]

Are you suggesting that mashing at 156F will yield the same FG as mashing at 146F?
Of course the yeast attenuation is given as a range. I would challenge you that the range is dependant, at least in part, to mash temperature, pH, and other factors Iam sure. I can only tell you that in my real world experience mash temperature affects FG.

Yes, sometimes. Say you take stout ingredients and mash one at 156 and one at 146. You may get a bit more attenuation in the lower temperature, but oftentimes not as much as previously though. Sure, it does affect it a bit, but ingredients and yeast health and mash pH play a greater role.

Mashing at, say, 158F+, does seem to make a difference more than a 5 or 7 degree difference of course in lower temperatures but it really depends on the specific grains. The utilization of maltotriose is something to consider, as it forms about 20% of the fermentable sugars in the wort. It usually is pretty non-fermentable, or at least less fermentable by brewer's yeast strains. So the brewers yeast will first 'work on' the easier sugars, like maltose, glucose, sucrose, fructose, etc. Maltose is a disaccharide (about 50% of wort, give or take), while maltotriose is a tri-saccharide.

Brewer's yeast strains tend to prefer glucose based sugars before moving onto other monosaccharides and them move onto maltose and maltotriose. So that's why beers with more simple sugars ferment to a lower FG than beers with more maltotriose as a rule. That's the biggest reason for the differences in FG and yeast strain attenuation, vs the actual mash temperature.

You can mash a light lager at 148F or 154F, and probably not see that much of a meaningful difference, and you can do the same for a stout, and not see that much of a meaningful difference overall. Especially if you don't mash out or reach a denaturing temperature soon after the mash. Time is part of the mash too of course- sometimes you'll get a more fermentable wort with a 90 minute mash than a 20 minute mash, so this is all 'in general'. In general, the mash temperatures themselves are a small part of wort fermentability compared to other things like fermentability of the ingredients themselves, yeast strain's attenuation, the length and pH of the mash, etc. And while the FG may vary, it will usually still fall in the range of the yeast strain's attenuation and there may not be a perceptible taste difference in the final beer, nor the body. There are occasions where an underattenuated beer will be too sweet to the taste of course, and sometimes it's because the mash was too hot (denatured too quickly to be fully fermentable) but usually it's a combination of factors so it's not always easy to say "a higher temperature mash created this".

All things being exactly equal, a much higher mash temperature will tend to favor a higher FG, and a very low temperature will tend to favor a lower FG, but it's not just a couple of degrees that make the difference overall. Generally, even a fairly large difference in mash temp may only change the FG +/- 10% at the most.

 

[Craigerrr]

Thank you @Yooper
I feel like we are saying the same thing in a way. It is not "the" factor, but it is "a" factor.