Mash calculator, total water

[Mont Y. Märzen]

And nuclear weapons. Can't forget them...

True, true. I was reading an assessment from an ex-DOD analyst once and they lamented that the one thing most people aren't expecting after one of those bad boys drops is for them to still be here, even if it was close. (they aren't 100% for those who don't know) Of course, that's the heinous part. If you are close, and you are still here to realize what happened, you'll wish you were closer. And if you are just slightly far away enough, trying to survive the resulting aftermath is going to really, really, suck. Hopefully those folks will stumble across a homebrewer at some point as beer solves everything, at least temporarily.

 

[oliver]

First, what is this voodoo you've divined that gets you 2.5 gal of packaged beer starting with only 3gal pre-boil? Have you discovered a way to practically eliminate boil-off, trub and losses? (kidding of course, but I *am* curious)

Second, that is a crazy amount of boil-off for that short of time. (especially considering your main system has practically no boil loss) Boil-off rate is determined by a nutty amount of variables, a few of which are ambient temp, wind-speed, and humidity. (not even considering the heat of the flame under the pot) If you are indoors, that practically eliminates those three variables unless you have a stove hood on full gale sucking the decoction out through the roof. Perhaps you are boiling your decoctions 'too hard'?

Another thing I noticed, you're working with math to way too many decimal places for the instruments you are using. For example, how did you measure 2.73 qts for the first decoction?

.23 of a quart (since 2.5qts is easy enough to measure) is 7.36 ounces. Are you really measuring to that resolution? .36 ounces could be easily less than 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch in a measuring cup. That could be the difference in the thickness of the *line* on the cup.

My point here is that first, I'd figure out what my measurement 'resolution' is, then realize that my real-world ± when I measure is going to thus cause a bigger ± in my equations. (thus, you are estimating/rounding throughout, not just at the end)

And that could very well be why your volumes seem whacky. You're assuming a precision that isn't there.

Find a metal 'yard stick' or other ruler tall enough for your vessels. It needs to be incremented to 1/32. (1/64 is just too hard to read) Then figure out your vessel dimensions. For a kettle, you'll need your diameter. Your gallons/inch will be:

[π (d ÷ 2)^2] ÷ 231

Then multiply your height (vessel or actual level, whichever you want to measure) by that result. That is about as accurate as you are going to get. Measuring with cups or pitchers just won't cut it. (if you need precision) You can figure a similar factor for your decoction pot. If you have an odd shaped vessel (like a rectangular cooler with rounded corners) you're going to have to do more fancy math, or estimate, (!!) or install and carefully calibrate a sight-glass with very precise gradations.

I've traversed that rabbit hole. Then I poured a beer and relaxed and stop worrying about it. After all, we're just cooking, not engineering an interplanetary lander.

'Close enough' counts not only for Horseshoes and Hand Grenades, but also beer.

typical 2.5 gallon batch:

grain absorption for most beers is 0.2 qt/lb
grain absorption for heavy oats/flakes is more like 0.25-0.3 qt/lb
Boil rate on an electric kettle is always 3 qt/hour
3 gal boil down to 2.25 gal, then add 1 qt starter = 2.5 gal
or
3.25 gal down to 2.5 gal, pitch yeast straight on it

post boil, drain into another kettle that is shorter/wider for cooling, pour the entire contents into the fermenter = 2.5 gal.

and yes, I use a really nice decoction spreadsheet calculator, and I use two measuring cups, a 16 fl oz and a 32 fl oz, both with markings for individual oz, I dial in, it works well.

I thihk the wacky numbers is from a longer decoction boil, driving off more liquid.
If I pull the decoction out when I'm at 145ºF, then I boil for 15 minutes, two things then happen. The mash tun drops 5-10 degrees, and the decoction boil off is less volume than I started with. So therefore I'm not reinfusing the proper amount I calculated, and also I'm not reinfusing into the proper volume I calculated.

Expected, just as an example, these numbers aren't accurate, infuse 1 gallon of boiling decoction back to the mash at 145ºF, should step up to like 165 or something.

Reality, because of boil off and mash temp loss, I'm infusing 0.875 gal into 140ºF mash, meaning I'm only getting to like 155ºF.

 

[Mont Y. Märzen]

typical 2.5 gallon batch:

grain absorption for most beers is 0.2 qt/lb
grain absorption for heavy oats/flakes is more like 0.25-0.3 qt/lb
Boil rate on an electric kettle is always 3 qt/hour
3 gal boil down to 2.25 gal, then add 1 qt starter = 2.5 gal
or
3.25 gal down to 2.5 gal, pitch yeast straight on it.

Wow. 3qt/hour boil off is nice. If only I could get that low. (I'm in the 1.7gal/hr range) And with such insanely low grain absorption, you must be squeezing the everliving snot out of that bag. I do what I can, and the resulting spent grain is pretty crumbly, but never that dry.

post boil, drain into another kettle that is shorter/wider for cooling, pour the entire contents into the fermenter = 2.5 gal.

and yes, I use a really nice decoction spreadsheet calculator, and I use two measuring cups, a 16 fl oz and a 32 fl oz, both with markings for individual oz, I dial in, it works well.

I thihk the wacky numbers is from a longer decoction boil, driving off more liquid.
If I pull the decoction out when I'm at 145ºF, then I boil for 15 minutes, two things then happen. The mash tun drops 5-10 degrees, and the decoction boil off is less volume than I started with. So therefore I'm not reinfusing the proper amount I calculated, and also I'm not reinfusing into the proper volume I calculated.

Expected, just as an example, these numbers aren't accurate, infuse 1 gallon of boiling decoction back to the mash at 145ºF, should step up to like 165 or something.

Reality, because of boil off and mash temp loss, I'm infusing 0.875 gal into 140ºF mash, meaning I'm only getting to like 155ºF.

As long as your volume measures are really really accurate, yeah, that can be a problem. I'm still going to hazard a guess that 'resolution of measurement' is at play somewhere. But more likely, just back off the heat on the decoction a bit as that loss seems really high percentage wise. If you can get that down, of course, you're infusing more volume.

Do you go straight to boil with your decoctions? Traditional method is to step through the remaining rests with each decoction, *then* boil. Which of course adds more time, and more opportunity for lost heat in the main mash. (requiring some sort of external insulation like bubble foil wrap, blankets, etc.)

What are you using for a mash tun? Dimensions?

And thanks for the specs. Have you had a look at http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com and his spreadsheets? I've read over his decoction pages and that's pretty much what we follow in most cases. For any brew, his sheets also take into account sugar volume from grain. I don't think I've seen anyone else do so.

I'm about to start playing with his Party Gyle spreadsheet.

 

[oliver]

Wow. 3qt/hour boil off is nice. If only I could get that low. (I'm in the 1.7gal/hr range) And with such insanely low grain absorption, you must be squeezing the everliving snot out of that bag. I do what I can, and the resulting spent grain is pretty crumbly, but never that dry.



As long as your volume measures are really really accurate, yeah, that can be a problem. I'm still going to hazard a guess that 'resolution of measurement' is at play somewhere. But more likely, just back off the heat on the decoction a bit as that loss seems really high percentage wise. If you can get that down, of course, you're infusing more volume.

Do you go straight to boil with your decoctions? Traditional method is to step through the remaining rests with each decoction, *then* boil. Which of course adds more time, and more opportunity for lost heat in the main mash. (requiring some sort of external insulation like bubble foil wrap, blankets, etc.)

What are you using for a mash tun? Dimensions?

And thanks for the specs. Have you had a look at http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Braukaiser.com and his spreadsheets? I've read over his decoction pages and that's pretty much what we follow in most cases. For any brew, his sheets also take into account sugar volume from grain. I don't think I've seen anyone else do so.

I'm about to start playing with his Party Gyle spreadsheet.

i squeeze hard, yeah.

mash tun is 5 gallon igloo cooler with a mesh bag in lieu of false bottom. decoctions get scooped into a 4 gal stainless kettle and brought up to a boil on the stovetop, usually takes 15-20 min to get those up to a roll.

 

[Mallonee's Malt]

I want to thank you guys for the detailed discussion. I have read multiple articles on decoction and still didn't really understand what the process was. Your descriptions here give me one of the best views I've had of the process (and trying to understand the math behind it).

 

[oliver]

I want to thank you guys for the detailed discussion. I have read multiple articles on decoction and still didn't really understand what the process was. Your descriptions here give me one of the best views I've had of the process (and trying to understand the math behind it).

https://brewstock.com/chartsandtools/decoctioncalculator/

 

[Mallonee's Malt]

That calculator looks like it would be handy. But it assumes that the user already knows the decoction processing steps in order to apply it. I will say it again. The detailed steps in this thread have been clearer than multiple articles on decoction.

I'm trying to figure out some different math now. I got one of those BeerMKR machines for Christmas. I'm trying to figure out the calculations for a Double or Reiterative mash within the context of that machine. Obviously that's a different thread than this one. I got to this thread trying to understand the mashing options in brewersfriend recipe editor.