Water treatment for steeped grain recipes

[Tipple]

Hello!

I make brews that use malt extract as the base malt and use steeped grains to get the character I want. In the "Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator", I set the volume of mash water to my volume of steeping water and then calculate my salt additions base on this water volume. In other words, I adjust my water chemistry for my steeping water only. Is this correct or should I be calculating my salt additions based on my total batch volume? If I should be using the total batch volume, how should I stage the salt additions bearing in mind that I have three volumes: steep, boil, and make-up?

This has been bothering me for some time, so thanks for shedding any light!

 

[Minbari]

two thoughts here

I always add brewing salts based on the whole batch size, so 5 gallons. BUT, I do full grain brewing. so none of brewing has been done ahead of time.

With a extract, dry or liquid, the company did the mash and boil and even hopping in some cases. so they might have done some water chemistry already. (even if they didnt, they had to use local water which will have had some minerals in it)

I guess I would say to experiment. if you feel you need more of some addition, add more. *shrugs*

 

[Tipple]

"they might have done some water chemistry already" - that was my assumption too. I believe it's true of the kits that are intended to produce a specific style, but I don't know whether it's true of a more generic extract. The company wouldn't know whether I was intending to make a lager or a stout, but there could be some more assumptions built into the °L of the extract. Also, the company wouldn't know anything about my local water, but perhaps they just assume RO or distilled. It seems more reasonable to assume that the salts are need by the steeping grains, but it still has me scratching my head - and there's the yeast to consider too. . .

 

[NorthCoastBrewer]

@Tipple : it's very unusual to use an all-grain "water chemistry" calculator when steeping crystal/roasted malts. But I won't claim that it's wrong to do so - especially if you are getting good results.

In 4e of How to Brew, Palmer suggests steeping in low OG wort to help manage pH and to minimize the chance of tannin extraction. Chapters 1 & 8 contain additional information that is helpful in understanding his approach. That information may also be helpful to you in your approach.

Dry/Liquid malt extract will contain the minerals from the manufacturers source water supply as well as any "left over" minerals needed for a proper mash. When the wort is concentrated (vacuum evaporated), they take just the water out (leaving the minerals behind). Using RO/distilled water avoids adding additional minerals. How To Brew, 4e also talks about using "low mineral" tap water when brewing with DME/LME.

It seems more reasonable to assume that the salts are need by the steeping grains

If the purpose of adjusting the steeping water is to manage pH, this may be reasonable - I'll suggest adjusting just the steeping water to help avoid over mineralizing the wort. I'll also suggest taking a look at How to Brew's approach - as it doesn't involve adding minerals.

... and there's the yeast to consider too

If you are using dry yeast (and are not planning on re-pitching), it's safe to assume that the yeast are "ready to go" and no additional water adjustments are needed. Some home brewers use beer (not wine) yeast nutrient - and see it as "cheap insurance".

 

[Tipple]

Thank you for your considered reply. As a previously occasional Cooper's kit brewer, reading Palmer was an education - albeit one with quite a learning curve (even after several reads). He touches on this subject in Chapter 13, but steeping seems to be a generally over-looked practice, even though I think it gives good results for a lot less work.

My local water is very low in minerals - close to Pilsen - so I use water treatment for the steep whenever I brew something darker. Palmer mentions that steeping heavily roasted malts in low alkalinity water will produce high acidity and harsh flavours. He doesn't go beyond this, so I have to assume that water treatment is necessary for the steep.

I'm still little more than a beginner at this, so every brew is different and uses fresh yeast (and beer nutrient!). I'm still learning to use BrewersFriend's recipe calculator, but I'm slowly getting better at it (I think). Again, steeped grains don't get much attention. My current practice is to pick a style that has a water profile, devise a water treatment for the steep, formulate a recipe, and then check that everything falls within the statistics provided for the style, including the BU/GU, Palmer's residual alkalinity range, and the SO4/Cl ratio. My current brew is a Porter, which seems to be about as dark as I can go before my mineral additions start fighting each other.

If nothing else, my OCD personality is having a lot of fun and the beer is turning out just fine!

 

[Craigerrr]

I think the only thing you really need to do is make sure that there is no chlorine or chloromine in your water. If there is either use spring water, or there is a tablet you can add that will get rid of it, I forget what it is called.
Other than that water chemistry is really only important in the mash, but you aren't mashing.

 

[Tipple]

According to Palmer, potassium metabisulphite will deal with chloramine.

He says (Chapter 4) that water chemistry is very important for all-grain brews because they can affect the conversion of starches to sugars, but once that has been achieved, their effect on flavour is much reduced. Taken in conjunction with his other comments, I take this to mean that "much reduced" doesn't mean "eliminated" and that water treatment for the steep may be necessary for brewing dark beers, depending on one's local water profile.

Thanks to everyone (and Palmer) for helping to clarify my thoughts on this.

 

[Minbari]

According to Palmer, potassium metabisulphite will deal with chloramine.

He says (Chapter 4) that water chemistry is very important for all-grain brews because they can affect the conversion of starches to sugars, but once that has been achieved, their effect on flavour is much reduced. Taken in conjunction with his other comments, I take this to mean that "much reduced" doesn't mean "eliminated" and that water treatment for the steep may be necessary for brewing dark beers, depending on one's local water profile.

Thanks to everyone (and Palmer) for helping to clarify my thoughts on this.

that is one of the ingredients of camden tablets.

 

[GFHomebrew]

According to Palmer, potassium metabisulphite will deal with chloramine.

He says (Chapter 4) that water chemistry is very important for all-grain brews because they can affect the conversion of starches to sugars, but once that has been achieved, their effect on flavour is much reduced. Taken in conjunction with his other comments, I take this to mean that "much reduced" doesn't mean "eliminated" and that water treatment for the steep may be necessary for brewing dark beers, depending on one's local water profile.

Thanks to everyone (and Palmer) for helping to clarify my thoughts on this.

Yes in part but water chemistry is more than just for mashing it affects the overall mouthfeel on the beer adding more sulphates increases bitterness Chlorides maltiness going too far in either direction can come across as mineraly in my personal experience.

 

[Sandy Feet]

For extracts and steeping, I don't know I would overthink it this much. 3 words: Bottled, Spring, Water.
I should be playing with water chemistry with the BIAB, but I like my beer, so I don't. Spring water makes good beer until you really want to start toying with things or get bigger. Well, at least the Ocala sourced water that I get from Publix.

 

[NorthCoastBrewer]

Chapter 13

Looks like you have 3rd edition of How to Brew.

My local water is very low in minerals - close to Pilsen - so I use water treatment for the steep whenever I brew something darker. Palmer mentions that steeping heavily roasted malts in low alkalinity water will produce high acidity and harsh flavours. He doesn't go beyond this, so I have to assume that water treatment is necessary for the steep.

With 4e of the book, he offers the approach I mentioned earlier. Your approach for managing these issues is unusual, but (IMO) reasonable.

I take this to mean that "much reduced" doesn't mean "eliminated" and that water treatment for the steep may be necessary for brewing dark beers, depending on one's local water profile.

Chapter 8 (of 4e) talks about adding CaS04 or CaCl for flavor adjustments. Note that the adjustments are likely to be brand specific. I typically add a small amount of CaS04 to my hop forward styles.

Thanks to everyone (and Palmer) for helping to clarify my thoughts on this.

And thanks for sharing your approach!

 

[Tipple]

@NorthCoastBrewer This explains why I couldn't find a "Section e" in Chapter 4!

You and @Trialben have both commented on the SO4/Cl ratio. I was half a dozen brews into this hobby before I figured this out. There's so much to learn that I've written an instruction manual so that I have a quick reference when I'm working on a new recipe. I find that writing something down is a good test of how well I understand the subject matter.

I've just started a revised IPA recipe where the SO4/Cl will be around 3.65. This will be the first time that I've invented my own water profile for a recipe. My first pass at this gives me Ca 99, Mg 11, Na 35, Cl 54, SO4 197, HCO3 102 with an RA of 8.8 (Palmer's range is -25 to +35 for my current choice of malts). The BU/GU is 0.84 and the IBU is 42. The latter is lower than I expected, but if I boost the hops the BU/GU will be out of range unless I boost the OG as well, which I don't want to do. I'm happy to see how it turns out.

Am I over-thinking all this? Quite possibly (it's a weakness I have), but the Devil is always in the details and trying to figure out why things are done the way they are is always an education. It'll be easy enough to back off once I have my thoughts in order.

 

[NorthCoastBrewer]

Am I over-thinking all this?

Maybe not - but definitely thinking about it differently than I do.

I never tried to use water chemistry software with DME/LME. Instead, I use a "season to taste" approach with additions of CaS04 / CaCl. I'm not concerned about steeping pH as I haven't detected tannins in the past. Recently, I've been curious about steeping in low OG wort; so far the results have been good, so I'll keep trying it in 2024.

If you're getting good (or improving results), you're on a good path.

 

[Donoroto]

@NorthCoastBrewer This explains why I couldn't find a "Section e" in Chapter 4!

You and @Trialben have both commented on the SO4/Cl ratio. I was half a dozen brews into this hobby before I figured this out. There's so much to learn that I've written an instruction manual so that I have a quick reference when I'm working on a new recipe. I find that writing something down is a good test of how well I understand the subject matter.

I've just started a revised IPA recipe where the SO4/Cl will be around 3.65. This will be the first time that I've invented my own water profile for a recipe. My first pass at this gives me Ca 99, Mg 11, Na 35, Cl 54, SO4 197, HCO3 102 with an RA of 8.8 (Palmer's range is -25 to +35 for my current choice of malts). The BU/GU is 0.84 and the IBU is 42. The latter is lower than I expected, but if I boost the hops the BU/GU will be out of range unless I boost the OG as well, which I don't want to do. I'm happy to see how it turns out.

Am I over-thinking all this? Quite possibly (it's a weakness I have), but the Devil is always in the details and trying to figure out why things are done the way they are is always an education. It'll be easy enough to back off once I have my thoughts in order.

Perhaps you are overthinking it, but just a little. You are in the right track, but I am thinking (overthinking?) of two things:

First, everything is plus or minus a bunch. Ca at 99 is indistinguishable from Ca at 105. For example.

Second, as mentioned, most malt extract already has minerals. Ignore those and you can risk over-mineralizing. BUT you don't know how much is too much until you overdo it, and don't be afraid to try. Ca 220 is not 'too much' for many styles.

The only mineral I am wary of is Sodium, anything over 25-30 is cause for my attention. Luckily the source water is at 8 for Na, leaving decent wiggle room.

 

[Tipple]

Maybe not - but definitely thinking about it differently than I do.

I never tried to use water chemistry software with DME/LME. Instead, I use a "season to taste" approach with additions of CaS04 / CaCl. I'm not concerned about steeping pH as I haven't detected tannins in the past. Recently, I've been curious about steeping in low OG wort; so far the results have been good, so I'll keep trying it in 2024.

If you're getting good (or improving results), you're on a good path.

You just put some extract in your steeping water and proceed otherwise as normal?

 

[Tipple]

Perhaps you are overthinking it, but just a little. You are in the right track, but I am thinking (overthinking?) of two things:

First, everything is plus or minus a bunch. Ca at 99 is indistinguishable from Ca at 105. For example.

Second, as mentioned, most malt extract already has minerals. Ignore those and you can risk over-mineralizing. BUT you don't know how much is too much until you overdo it, and don't be afraid to try. Ca 220 is not 'too much' for many styles.

The only mineral I am wary of is Sodium, anything over 25-30 is cause for my attention. Luckily the source water is at 8 for Na, leaving decent wiggle room.

My immediate reaction was that you picked a second number (105) so close to 99. My steeping volumes are small (usually 4 to 6 litres) so my mineral additions are very small (varying from 0.1 g to around 1.5 g), and I'm basing those on an online calculator that I know nothing about. My scale has a resolution of 0.1 g, but its accuracy is anyone's guess. I may be lucky to get within 20% of my target ppms!

Notwithstanding that, my brews seems to be turning out alright - I prefer them to most of the stuff the local craft breweries produce, my wife likes them (more important), and I got rave reviews completely unsolicited from several people at our Christmas open house. My primary observations at the moment are that my FG usually comes in a couple of point lower than expected (I'm going to try re-guessing my efficiency) and the brews are also a little darker than I'm expecting. I think I'm certainly overdoing the steeping in grains in terms of complexity (Palmer cautions beginners against this) and probably quantity too, so I'm working on that for my next brews. So many experiments, so little time!

 

[Donoroto]

My immediate reaction was that you picked a second number (105) so close to 99. My steeping volumes are small (usually 4 to 6 litres) so my mineral additions are very small (varying from 0.1 g to around 1.5 g), and I'm basing those on an online calculator that I know nothing about. My scale has a resolution of 0.1 g, but its accuracy is anyone's guess. I may be lucky to get within 20% of my target ppms!

Notwithstanding that, my brews seems to be turning out alright - I prefer them to most of the stuff the local craft breweries produce, my wife likes them (more important), and I got rave reviews completely unsolicited from several people at our Christmas open house. My primary observations at the moment are that my FG usually comes in a couple of point lower than expected (I'm going to try re-guessing my efficiency) and the brews are also a little darker than I'm expecting. I think I'm certainly overdoing the steeping in grains in terms of complexity (Palmer cautions beginners against this) and probably quantity too, so I'm working on that for my next brews. So many experiments, so little time!

Ok. I also think 80 versus 120 won't be detectable by most people. 0.1 g plus ir minus is a tiny error, even for your batch size, so the scale is precise enough.

As for color, my beers Always turn out darker. Never had a beer look as light as, say, budweiser.

But most important: it tastes good. You're there.

If and when you fiddle with water, take notes while brewing and when tasting. Eventually a pattern will emerge, guiding you to understand what does what to the beer.

 

[NorthCoastBrewer]

You just put some extract in your steeping water and proceed otherwise as normal?

Yes, for the steeped wort, I add DME to get to around OG 20.

 

[Tipple]

Yes, for the steeped wort, I add DME to get to around OG 20.

I've just twigged that steeping in wort is an approximate alternative to using precise water treatment - if you choose an extract to suit your brew, it has already been treated, so don't do it again. Bit slow on the up-take sometimes *sigh*

 

[NorthCoastBrewer]

I've just twigged that steeping in wort is an approximate alternative to using precise water treatment.

+1 to Palmer for doing the "hard work" to simplify things on the 1st brew day.

if you choose an extract to suit your brew, it has already been treated

Yes, the mash has been done for you.

But don't overlook the "season to taste" aspect. There are a number of topics over at HomeBrewTalk where brewers brewing with extract and adding CaCl, CaS04, and NaCl (table salt). I can offer a couple of links to get you started.

In #17 (above), @Donoroto offers good advice on minerals and PPM ranges.

Your approach (using water chemistry for small volumes of steeping grains) isn't "wrong" (especially if it produces good beer). But it is unconventional. Again, thanks for sharing!