Water calculations - roasted vs specialty malts

[onesecondglance]

The water calculator seems to dramatically change its assumptions on malt pH effect when selecting different classifications of malt. For example, in a recipe with approx 25% Crisp Brown Malt, the calculator changed from 5.5 pH to 5.0 pH just changing the Brown Malt from "Roasted" to "Specialty". The colour of the malt is the same - that's an enormous change in the calculated pH based on a fairly arbitrary classification of a given malt.

Can this be explained / checked, please. Swings like that make the calculator almost unusable for beers with high percentages of dark malts.

 

[Minbari]

Do those two malt show the ph content in the recipe?

 

[onesecondglance]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but here is a picture what I'm seeing.

On the left is the pH calc with the malt set as "specialty". On the right, set as "roasted". The change in calculated pH value is far larger than I'd expect.

 

[Minbari]

Ah ok. I thought you were asking about different grains, not a setting of the same grain.

That said, roasting does increase acidity. By how much and how they calculate it? That would be something for admins to answer

 

[onesecondglance]

Yes, I am looking for the developers to confirm what's going on and whether it's expected behaviour.

Also, note that changing the malt type to "roasted" is increasing the pH rather than lowering it as you might expect (since, as you say, roasting typically increases acidity).

 

[Yooper]

Yes, I am looking for the developers to confirm what's going on and whether it's expected behaviour.

Also, note that changing the malt type to "roasted" is increasing the pH rather than lowering it as you might expect (since, as you say, roasting typically increases acidity).

Roasted malts aren't base malts or considered a speciality malt like Munich malt.

It shouldn't increase the pH though, but it really depends on the recipe, the water, the lovibond of the malt, etc.

 

[onesecondglance]

Roasted malts aren't base malts or considered a speciality malt like Munich malt.

Well, yeah. That's why there's a different classification. The point is I don't know if that classification is behaving as expected.

I can send a link to the water calc in question, I just don't know who I would send it to. There isn't a clear route to technical support.

 

[Yooper]

Well, yeah. That's why there's a different classification. The point is whether that classification is behaving as expected.

If there is an actual proper technical support avenue I will be happy to send a link to the water calc in question and stop wasting our time here.

I don’t believe you are wasting your time here- I’m ready to see the recipe/link/water calculator. But I cannot guess at why it’s not acting like you’d expect if I cannot see it in the recipe, and the linked water calculator. You shouldn’t have to change the type of malt, as it should be in the database properly but until I can dig into it, I have to give general information.

 

[onesecondglance]

Feels very odd posting a link for support in a public forum, but here's the calc:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=P4NMD56

The recipe method is no sparge, hence all the liquor is added at the start of the mash (BIAB style). The acid addition is there based on the Brown malt being "roasted", which I think is the correct classification for Crisp Brown Malt.

 

[Yooper]

Feels very odd posting a link for support in a public forum, but here's the calc:

https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=P4NMD56

The recipe method is no sparge, hence all the liquor is added at the start of the mash (BIAB style). The acid addition is there based on the Brown malt being "roasted", which I think is the correct classification for Crisp Brown Malt.

Thanks! Do you have the recipe that the calc is linked to, or did you type it in? I wanted to see if the issue is with something in the database,or something with the recipe builder pulling in ‘extra’ ingredients that aren’t in the calculator as well as seeing the prediction before the water calc is added.

 

[onesecondglance]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1202094/1887-fullers-porter

The recipe is not shared/public but hopefully you can still get to it from this link.

Appreciate you looking into this.

 

[Yooper]

https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/1202094/1887-fullers-porter

The recipe is not shared/public but hopefully you can still get to it from this link.

Appreciate you looking into this.

I guess it’s best to explain that some of the ingredients are from our database, but others are added by the users and that makes a huge difference, so I need to look at the specifics. When you link your recipe to the water calc it should auto populate with the correct description and the impact on the pH. That’s what I’m trying to determine.